International Waters

[Refueler]

When I worked on Seismic ships N.Sea ... there was always the problem of territorial waters and Customs etc. So we used to trip over the 60N latitude line out there to have Log book show we had exited ....then we could break seals on Bonded stores etc. It also legalised the vessels departure for Immigration etc.

Now for the reason I mention .....

If a boat - lets say UK reg'd sits in an EU port ... and then exits - proceeds to International Waters outside their jurisdiction ... and the Log / Navigation track can show this has been done ... would the boat then be clear to re-enter EU port .... and Crew

Lets say ... I have a UK boat in Ventspils (Latvia west coast) .... I sail out into Baltic - which means I leave Latvian Waters ... into International waters then enter Swedish Waters ... the question is would Time in EU reset ..... for boat and crew ?

I must ask my CA connection ...

 

[lustyd]

For crew it’s irrelevant as far as Schengen is concerned since it’s a rolling 180 day window. Non Schengen varies by country.
For a boat yes in theory but depends on local customs interpretation. Better to visit a foreign port as a day trip could be seen as not really leaving.

 

[ylop]

the generally accepted position seems to be that Latvia-InternationalWaters-Sweden does not count as having left the EU for VAT purposes although ultimately the courts would need to decide on the facts and circumstances. Eg I think its hard to believe that if you had a British vessel sailed it to France and prepare it for a big trip then left France, sailed solo non stop around the world for a year and return back to your starting point in France that the boat is considered to have been in France the whole time. But until someone tries it, a customs official is stupid about it and then someone goes to court you don’t know for sure.

 

[lustyd]

I think that’s key here. How much desire do you have to argue with civil servants. It’s entirely likely you’d win, but at what cost?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/fa095d6b-45dd-4c7a-94c7-bad21d0473a9_en

Can you have another period of Temporary Importation? How long must you wait?

Yes, you are not limited to a single period of temporary import. You can sail the yacht out of the EU and when you came back again a new period of temporary admission can begin. The customs rules do not provide for a 'minimum period' during which the goods must remain outside of the customs territory of the Union.

In my experience, when re-setting the TA clock, I always returned to the same port I left from.

I asked on exit what I had to do to complete the export and start re-import, I noted the answer, and the name of the official I talked to, then I did what they told me. Resetting TA is a regular occurence in the EU and if you have a marina berth and the yacht is normally berthed locally, they are relatively lenient concerning the reset conditions. I was told to go out of sight of land and not go ashore or anchor, literally "don't take the pi$$", I recorded a GPS track going 12 Nm from the Croatian coast before turning round, raising the yellow flag, and going back in again. I only recommend this if you already know the customs office you are checking into accepts this behaviour.

They always asked on entry where I had come from, the answer that worked the best was "open sea" combined with presenting my export paperwork, making it obvious I was just resetting the TA clock. The first time I did it, I was a bit too vague and they started getting shirty until it became absolutely clear it was simply a TA reset - then the smiles came out and the paperwork was happily stamped.

To be absolutely certain, paperwork showing TA and subsequent export from a country outside the EU, and accompanying passport stamps will guarantee problem free re-entry anywhere.

 

[lustyd]

They always asked on entry where I had come from

They often ask where going to, as well. The EES may well change the way these things work, since it will all be recorded digitally allowing many loopholes to be closed including this one.

 

[Refueler]

I don't regard it as a loophole .... same as the Customs example I gave originally. As long as you can show exit formalities and evidence of actual International waters ???

I'm not planning on doing it ... as I have enough boats now ... but who knows if I change a boat ?? There are some nice boats in UK I could quite easily take a shine to. They'd have to Pt1 though because I have no UK address for Pt3

 

[ylop]

I'm not planning on doing it ... as I have enough boats now ... but who knows if I change a boat ?? There are some nice boats in UK I could quite easily take a shine to. They'd have to Pt1 though because I have no UK address for Pt3

Assuming the EU vat rules are the same as the UK you can't dodge vat this way - as I understand it a UK tax resident bringing a boat in to the UK immediately become liable for VAT when they arrive (there may be exceptions but not enough to make it worthwhile). The temporary admission rules allow a non-UK resident to bring a boat to the UK (or in your case a non-EU resident to bring a boat to the EU).

 

[lustyd]

I don't regard it as a loophole

It's clearly a loophole which people use to keep boats in the EU without paying VAT. Whether that's by design or not we'll find out once the electronic systems come online.
Seems to me an easy short term money grab for a politician wanting some cash, it's not like the thousands of boats in the Med have anywhere else they can all go at once. Whether they take this money grab sooner or later is yet to be seen, but politicians love an easy win.

 

[lustyd]

I'm not planning on doing it ... as I have enough boats now ... but who knows if I change a boat ?? There are some nice boats in UK I could quite easily take a shine to. They'd have to Pt1 though because I have no UK address for Pt3

Aren't you EU resident anyway? Registration is irrelevant

 

[Baggywrinkle]

It's clearly a loophole which people use to keep boats in the EU without paying VAT. Whether that's by design or not we'll find out once the electronic systems come online.
Seems to me an easy short term money grab for a politician wanting some cash, it's not like the thousands of boats in the Med have anywhere else they can all go at once. Whether they take this money grab sooner or later is yet to be seen, but politicians love an easy win.

It's necessary, otherwise every time a non EU-resident boat owner visits the EU in their boat they'd have to pay VAT and import the boat (which means also meeting the current RCD regs) - this would effectively ban all older boats from the EU by making the overall cost of import and VAT prohibitive.

That is why Temporary Admission exists - to allow non-residents to cruise far and wide and not have to import and pay VAT (or the equivalent) in every foreign country they visit.

Most boats in the Med are EU-resident owned anyway, so VAT paid - but killing the ability of foreigners to cruise in the EU by forcing an import in order to charge VAT would be counter-productive IMO.

When Croatia joined the EU, a large number of high-value boats owned by EU-residents fled to Montenegro and Turkey. Mine was old enough to be imported to the EU with zero rated VAT, so it stayed in Croatia, but I did have friends who were preparing to move their boats. To stop the flood of boats leaving, Croatia introduced a sweetener scheme and lowered VAT on boats to 5% in the run up to joining, so many then changed their minds and got EU VAT paid status @ 5% instead of the 25% rate that Croatia normally charged. My current boat has VAT paid paperwork @ 5%.

My take from this is that Croatias VAT sweetener at 5% was calculated to be enough to avoid damage to their marine leisure industry. That was when they were allowed to set VAT at any rate they wanted, now they are in the EU and no one EU country can introduce a sweetener scheme for foreign yachts. (If they did, then all new EU boats would end up being imported through that country - so the scheme would be stopped by Brussels). VAT rate is still country specific and can be set within a set of boundaries, but it's the conditions of import that would kill a TAX grab scheme because most second hand boats would need a new engine at least in order to comply with current RCD regs.

 

[lustyd]

That is why Temporary Admission exists

TI exists to allow visiting yachts to visit without being imported goods and paying appropriate taxes. We all know that many, many boats are permanently based in the EU but not VAT paid. Leaving for a day every 18 months is absolutely abusing the system and dodging taxes, we all know that, and we all know how to game the system. Still a loophole and still not how the system is designed.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

TI exists to allow visiting yachts to visit without being imported goods and paying appropriate taxes. We all know that many, many boats are permanently based in the EU but not VAT paid. Leaving for a day every 18 months is absolutely abusing the system and dodging taxes, we all know that, and we all know how to game the system. Still a loophole and still not how the system is designed.

It's exactly how the system is designed, and it's been like that in the EU since 1993. Now, it's the only benefit of Brexit I know of 'cos UK residents can now keep their boats VAT free in the EU which they couldn't do before. They can only visit them for 90 days out of 180, but the rest of the time, they're paying the marina fees and upkeep costs. Win win.

There is a maximum limit of 10 years, even though each period is 18 months.

The number of private VAT unpaid boats in the EU belonging to non-residents is miniscule in comparison to the number of VAT paid boats owned by EU residents - just not worth bothering with.

 

[lustyd]

There is a maximum limit of 10 years, even though each period is 18 months.

Didn’t know that!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Didn’t know that!

Article 251

Article 251

Period during which goods may remain under the temporary admission procedure
1.
The customs authorities shall determine the period within which goods placed under the temporary admission procedure must be re-exported or placed under a subsequent customs procedure. Such period shall be long enough for the objective of authorised use to be achieved.
2.
Except where otherwise provided, the maximum period during which goods may remain under the temporary admission procedure for the same purpose and under the responsibility of the same authorisation holder shall be 24 months, even where the procedure was discharged by placing the goods under another special procedure and subsequently placing them under the temporary admission procedure again.
3.
Where, in exceptional circumstances, the authorised use cannot be achieved within the period referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2, the customs authorities may grant an extension, of reasonable duration of that period, upon justified application by the holder of the authorisation.
4.
The overall period during which goods may remain under the temporary admission procedure shall not exceed 10 years, except in the case of an unforeseeable event.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32013R0952