Interesting article in this month's mag - motor cats

henryf

henryf

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How timely.

There I have been trawling through the interweb looking at motor cats spurred on by the Lagoon 630 which was a SIBS last year. An interesting concept, no need to run the generators for stabiliser power but such a dark world full of mystery. A load of niche producers, the Lagoon was OK but clearly a Beneteau in terms of interior finish. Not bad, just different to what we are used to with Princess. More Ikea than John Lewis.

Thought this article was an interesting one : http://www.atlantic-cruising.com/good-cat-bad-cat/

A very different beast to conventional mono-hulls. As much a learning curve for the magazine as it is for us. Still a lot of cats in the planning stage rather than in production. Have heard stories about the ride / motion, one hopes the bigger you go the better it gets. Some people love them to bits, others loath or maybe fear the unknown, who knows.

Either way an interesting read.

Henry :)
 
henryf said:
no need to run the generators for stabiliser power
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Don't be fooled.
I mean, yes, of course you don't "need" stabs on cats, but that's just because they couldn't work, not because the ride is intrinsically as smooth as with a stabilized monohull - it isn't, in spite of what many folks intuitively think!
In fact, while the rolling of a monohull can be eliminated almost completely, there's nothing you can do to eliminate the rolling of a cat.
Not only that, but the cat rolling is a different beast, bound to "copy" almost exactly the water surface, hence more snatchy/hectical than with a non-stabilized monohull - arguably less comfortable, even if the max angle is normally lower.
It's probably just while anchored, that cats offer the same comfort of a stabilized monohull, even with no stabs, but that's just because you obviously wouldn't anchor in conditions bad enough to make a cat roll.
 
Henry I know you are all for all thinking the British are still ahead of everyone so saying all this, may be you should have a look at Jaguar Catamarans.
It is a UK company and as far as I know build in UK. To be honest I think they look sweeter then the Lagoons.
http://www.poweryachtblog.com/2014/04/new-model-jaguar-catamaran-jc48.html


Now if you pocket is deep you want to raise your stakes I guess you should have a look at the Polish Sunreef. http://www.poweryachtblog.com/2012/09/new-model-sunreef-60-power.html
All Sunreef are semi-custom in the real sense. Since custom and semi-custom is used by every boat builder nowadays, even if they change only your coffee set it's good to explain that on a new build Sunreef also offer different hull shapes. That is just a hint how deep there customization goes.
 
Sunreef feature quite well when you search for motor cats - you keep seeing the same names. The forward raised master cabin seems to be their signature.

Jaguar catamarans are a company I have also heard of on account of the the fact they have offices in Swanwick near Princess. The only problem is I've always assumed they were just a development company, "coming soon" doesn't really grab me I'm afraid. I've never actually seen one of their boats in the flesh. The motor cat world is awash with "projects" which are in stark contrast to the world I'm used to which is full of actual boats made by well established producers which you can touch feel and smell.

From my scratching of the surface Lagoon seem to be the big boys. The problem is I'm not sure I would buy the standard motor boat equivalent.

Could this be Fairline's time to shine? Break away from the big boys and use your manufacturing skills to dominate a smaller market which might be a growing one. Up to 78 feet would give you a huge range in the motor cat world.

In terms of ride I have zero experience so can't comment. A few mono-hull advocates have questioned the ride a cat gives. It brings me back to the speed argument and whether more than 8 knots allows you to avoid getting caught out in the worst of the seas. We would spend a lot more time at anchor than under way. Would we be running generators anyway for a/c in warmer climes? Possibly in which case stabilisers would work. Then again I've never been on a stabilised boat either.

All some way off in my pipe dreams but an interesting discussion.

Henry :)
 
henryf said:
Could this be Fairline's time to shine? Break away from the big boys and use your manufacturing skills to dominate a smaller market which might be a growing one. Up to 78 feet would give you a huge range in the motor cat world.

Henry :)
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Road logistics problem?

For me, a died in the wool boat owner, the cats are just ulgy. End of.

My boat is the biggest most expensive toy in my toy cupboard, why would I want an ulgy one?

I'm sure its an unsubstantiated prejudice, but I can't get past the uglyness.

Did I mention I think they are ugly?
 
burgundyben said:
Road logistics problem?

For me, a died in the wool boat owner, the cats are just ulgy. End of.

My boat is the biggest most expensive toy in my toy cupboard, why would I want an ulgy one?

I'm sure its an unsubstantiated prejudice, but I can't get past the uglyness.

Did I mention I think they are ugly?
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Ben, I'm with you, there are people who love multihulls, but the Lagoon range of sail & motor cats are just complete carbuncles in my view... and I did have a look at the motorcat article in my copy of MBY and got to say it just cemented my feeling that MBY and me don't really go so for the first time in over 15 years I plan to cancel my IPC sub... anyway, I digress.. There was a lagoon cat in Yarmouth last weekend, I think a small one, 43 ?, chap had a 10ft aluminium step ladder to get to the boom... . just horrid (yes I know...,. motorcats don't have booms, but still.... they are not nice)
 
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Firefly625 said:
Ben, I'm with you, there are people who love multihulls, but the Lagoon range of sail & motor cats are just complete carbuncles in my view... and I did have a look at the motorcat article in my copy of MBY and got to say it just cemented my feeling that MBY and me don't really go so for the first time in over 15 years I plan to cancel my IPC sub... anyway, I digress.. There was a lagoon cat in Yarmouth last weekend, I think a small one, 43 ?, chap had a 10ft aluminium step ladder to get to the boom... . just horrid (yes I know...,. motorcats don't have booms, but still.... they are not nice)
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Isn't it funny, I was really looking forward to reading the mag when it arrived. A bit of variety.

The vast majority of cats are indeed not the easiest of things on the eye but as they get bigger things can improve. No interest in sailing cats other than as a test bed to understand the hull dynamics and extreme weather handling characteristics.

I wonder if Fairline could use elements of it's production capability but assemble elsewhere. I don't know what the width restrictions are. Size restrictions seem to be a common conversation. Beneteau seem to share technology well across it's brands and locations.

Henry :)
 
henryf said:
Isn't it funny, I was really looking forward to reading the mag when it arrived. A bit of variety.

The vast majority of cats are indeed not the easiest of things on the eye but as they get bigger things can improve. No interest in sailing cats other than as a test bed to understand the hull dynamics and extreme weather handling characteristics.

I wonder if Fairline could use elements of it's production capability but assemble elsewhere. I don't know what the width restrictions are. Size restrictions seem to be a common conversation. Beneteau seem to share technology well across it's brands and locations.

Henry :)
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As BurgundyBen says, Fairline is restricted by the logistics of getting their boats down the A14 to Ipswich, so beam would stop them transporting a Cat. If they could build the 2 hulls then assemble at Ipswich, then problem solved.
I also read the articles with interest, and you do get a huge amount of space for the hull length, with super saloons and flys.
 
There have been 'normal' looking cats made (though I accept FF and Ben will shout these down as glitzy gin palace copies) which look 'conventional' as opposed to the lagoon option which is basically a sail boat without the sail.

View attachment 51434

Foils were even an option to give lift and lower fuel consumption but they never sold and most companies went bust. I have often wondered why the hydrofoil for mono power boats never took off either. I guess most buyers are a conservative bunch...
 
I think cats have enormous potential, not only in fuel efficiency etc, but especially in the looks department.

I agree with the views expressed above that many of the cats made to date do leave huge room for improvement.
But I don't think that cats have to look that ugly, I just think more work needs to be done.
I think they could look fabulous, without necessarily compromising practicality, accommodation or any other must-haves.

So yes, a real opportunity for established boat makers to move into new territory IMO
 
MapisM said:
Don't be fooled.
I mean, yes, of course you don't "need" stabs on cats, but that's just because they couldn't work, not because the ride is intrinsically as smooth as with a stabilized monohull - it isn't, in spite of what many folks intuitively think!
In fact, while the rolling of a monohull can be eliminated almost completely, there's nothing you can do to eliminate the rolling of a cat.
Not only that, but the cat rolling is a different beast, bound to "copy" almost exactly the water surface, hence more snatchy/hectical than with a non-stabilized monohull - arguably less comfortable, even if the max angle is normally lower.
It's probably just while anchored, that cats offer the same comfort of a stabilized monohull, even with no stabs, but that's just because you obviously wouldn't anchor in conditions bad enough to make a cat roll.
Click to expand...
+++1 to all that. Cats roll, sometimes like pigs, and you can't stabilise them. Sit in an anchorage where there are plenty and just watch them roll. There's nothing to like about them on that particular score imho
 
IMO, a huge benefit would be to get into shallower water at anchor.
Careful design to the prop position and they could "take the bottom" if necessary.
Wouldn't it be nice to get away from all those yachties by anchoring closer in
 
I've been on a couple of small motor cats (@ 35 40 feet). Weird ride in small seas didn't fancy a proper wild ride at all. Met a skipper for hire in cartegena a few years back who was taking a 50 foot cat back to the Caribbean. He was dreading it. Once it gets a bit rolly poly they slam like crazy and impossible to sleep. I thought cats were the future but I wasn't blown away by the fuel consumption past 10 knots. As per other posts great at anchor when it's pretty flat.
 
jfm said:
+++1 to all that. Cats roll, sometimes like pigs, and you can't stabilise them. Sit in an anchorage where there are plenty and just watch them roll. There's nothing to like about them on that particular score imho
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I'm not questioning you here but throwing some ideas out.

The article I linked to in my initial post http://www.atlantic-cruising.com/good-cat-bad-cat/ makes a number of interesting points. When you look at many of the motor cats out there they break some of the rules. It wouldn't be surprising then if these boats were horrible to use.

One of the things mentioned was beam not exceeding 50% of length. Is there an optimum point beyond which Cats start to work? A point at which wave height, length and swell would have to be so bad that you would just never be out there. A 300ft 120ft beam cat is hardly going to affected by the seas most of us sail in as indeed a 300ft mono-hull wouldn't be, but scaling down to more sensible dimensions is there a formula we can use as a guide ?

The Lagoon 630 featured in the magazine has a length of 64ft and a beam of just under 33ft. That's very different to something in the 40ft length category. Also most of the Cats I see are sailing Cats with what can only be described as a bloody big mast reaching skywards and scraping the moon. Leverage means once the mast moves it will have momentum. A low slung motor Cat would not suffer in the same way.

As I say I'm not arguing, I'm asking. This is new ground, even for the magazine which probably doesn't have a wealth of knowledge on the subject in the same way it does with conventional hull design. Many of the Cats featured weren't even built yet let alone compared in a variety of seas.

Could it be that smaller Cats are the worst of all worlds in that they can't be stabilised even if you wanted to but larger Cats do work ?

To add balance I've never been out as sea in a stabilised motor boat (if we exclude 30,000 - 150,000 tonne commercial ships), so can't say whether the benefits provided going down that route are so good that you question the need for Cats. My only thoughts were when anchored you do have to run a genny to keep the stabilisers working, although as I eluded to earlier if you are going to have the A/C running anyway does it matter?

Henry :)
 
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Hi Henry
Obviously there are accommodation benefits of a cat per foot of length and I'm not disputing that, but there are always accommodation benefits if you make any boat bigger, whether mono or cat, and whether "bigger" means beam or length or height. So I was only commenting on the dynamics

I'm also referring to motor cats. I've sat in plenty of Caribbean anchorages and watched Horizon 60s roll like pigs, in conditions where a stabilised monohulls would be flat and still. As waves pass thru the anchorage you cyclically get one hull on a wave peak and the other in a trough = rolling. The mast on the sailing cats AOTBE increase roll period, rather like lowering the weight on a grandfather clock pendulum, and so the roll characteristics differ from the motorcat version, generally for the better

Yep, in my view small motorcats are potentially worst of all worlds in that they roll in not-rough anchorages and you cant stabilise them. But everything is a compromise - they have shallow draft, and if you have LOA restrictions they give you lots of accom. As respects sail power, cats have high ability to absorb rolling torque for a given heel angle without the weight of a keel bulb, and therefore can care huuuuge sail area compared with hull weight, and thereby go VERY fast under sail, but that outstanding benefit doesn't apply to motorcats

I happen also to be in burgundyben's camp of thinking they're ugly, but that is a personal view and others like them. The stuff out there is a mixed bag qualitywise - the Horizons look very well finished and built but the Leopards (Robertson Caine, SA) are pretty basic tubs a nd aimed at the Moorings style charter market of course where theyget bashed about

The 50% maximum ratio idea is interesting. Think about it: a monoull motorboat is almost the same thing as a cat with a 25% ratio. So the 50% ratio is saying "don't become too catish - keep some monohullishness. Hmmm
 
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I don't remember the reasoning at the time but does anyone know why when Virgin Challenger 2 was built they went mono hull vs. the cat they used for Challenger 1?
 
I quite liked the look of the Horizon motorcat in the Our Fleet section of the mag. Also, in passing, I spotted an ex-jfm Sq58 in the pre-loved feature.
 
benjenbav said:
I quite liked the look of the Horizon motorcat in the Our Fleet section of the mag. Also, in passing, I spotted an ex-jfm Sq58 in the pre-loved feature.
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Yup the Horizon 60 is not at all shabby when you see it in the flesh, if you don't mind some roll at anchor. I have no idea what they cost btw. And yup well spotted: that transom/starboard shot is my last Squadron 58, photographed off Pampelonne in 2009 :-)
 
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