Insurance

[Sea Devil]

£12k would hardly cover a mast, rigging and sails if I should ever be so unlucky as to lose them. The market value of CO32s varies very much as to condition and £33k is not unreasonable for a tidy example with newish sails and engine. Prices on the CO32 Assoc. website vary from around £40k to £10k for ~40 year old boats. I guess for the discerning they still attract a premium because they look and sail so well - you can certainly find a lot more boat for similar money but whether it will give so much pleasure is a moot point.

I am not looking for more boat as I am downsizing to a easy single hander. Been looking at the market fairly intensively and for example there is a 1974 Contessa 32 @ 15,950. Another 1979 14,000 and several Nic 32s between 12-14,000. All these are asking prices so knock off 10% before you offer minimum. I think a lot of folks have optimistic values of their craft and only realise the reality when they come to sell

 

[doug748]

Yes. One sold in my yard for c13k last year. With 10k spent it would would no doubt now be a very handy boat.
Insurance valuations are a different matter.

 

[Kukri]

Two renewals from the East Coast Mutual Yacht Insurance Association which I paid yesterday:

Ohlson 38, £16,500, £298.20
Nicholson 55, £30,000, £593.04
Both Brest Elbe, daylight singlehanding, £250 excess

The ECYMIA will not be the cheapest, but there are no mickey mouse clauses and I do feel comfortable knowing that I am dealing with a Committee of other owners of ordinary yachts. Having once made a claim (1987 storm) I was very comfortable with the way in which they went about it.

 

[Sea Devil]

Seems expensive: My Westerly Ocean 43 valued at 130,000 with single handing included was around 600

basically insurance cover is on the value placed on the craft. The point I was trying to make was that I suspect a lot of us have overly optimistic of the actual market value of our boats. I wonder if there was a total loss if they pay out on the insured value or the market value?

The company I use is https://www.yachtmasterinsurance.co....otorboat-cover were giving a good price I thought on 130,000 value....

 

[BabaYaga]

£12k would hardly cover a mast, rigging and sails if I should ever be so unlucky as to lose them.

I think this is an important point for anyone seeking insurance for an ageing boat.
When deciding insurance value you cannot only look at the market value, but also at the likely maximum costs for repair/replacement after a partial loss.
According to Pantaenius' terms, a partial loss where these costs exceed the agreed insurance value, is regarded as a total loss – and will only result in the agreed sum being paid out.

 

[Sea Devil]

I think this is an important point for anyone seeking insurance for an ageing boat.
When deciding insurance value you cannot only look at the market value, but also at the likely maximum costs for repair/replacement after a partial loss.
According to Pantaenius' terms, a partial loss where these costs exceed the agreed insurance value, is regarded as a total loss – and will only result in the agreed sum being paid out.

That seems fair enough. I was hit by lightning in my Angus Primrose 36 whilst cruising in the Chesapeake USA and Pantaenious were brilliant. http://www.michaelbriant.com/lightning.htm They helped find a boatyard that specialised in electronics and paid out 47,000 in repairs and replacents.

None the less when I got back to European waters and stopped blue water cruising I found there were many insurance companies that offered more modest quotes for ´local´sailing.

 

[doug748]

I think this is an important point for anyone seeking insurance for an ageing boat.
When deciding insurance value you cannot only look at the market value, but also at the likely maximum costs for repair/replacement after a partial loss.
According to Pantaenius' terms, a partial loss where these costs exceed the agreed insurance value, is regarded as a total loss – and will only result in the agreed sum being paid out.

Yes. Indeed some policies will not even pay out up to the agreed value. Speaking of another company on the Motor Boat Forum, JFM said yesterday:

"........Just for starters, their electrolysis clause is among the worst in my opinion. Also, if you have a total loss they are not required to pay you cash equal to the insured amount and are free instead to find you a replacement boat of their choosing, which can be slightly older than, slightly smaller than, and similar rather than the same as, the one you lost. I ask you, why does anyone at all buy this policy, ever? I guess the answer might be that they don't read it. I wish them well. Do yourself a favour and vote with your feet.."

BTW, there are hundreds of experts on this forum but JFM is one of handful who I always take very seriously. When he speaks it is worth listening. I think he rates the Y policy as one of the best (hope I remembered this correctly - can anyone confirm others?). If Pantaenius push too hard, that is where I will be looking next. -]

 

[UK-WOOZY]

for my 1988 jeanneau sundream (29.5ft) on a swing mooring on the thames at the yacht club im with im payin £150 fully comp per year and this includes tender and outboard cover. this is with GJW. and i claimed £1000 in 2013 when i had my previous 1979 intro 22 yacht for loss of rudder after grounding.

 

[Kukri]

A marine policy is an agreed value policy. That is why you agree the value. In my day job I have a quite elderly containership which is insured for, roughly, her scrap value. In the event of serious damage, the underwriters are certainly going to pay out a CTL. We all know that!

 

[Sea Devil]

A marine policy is an agreed value policy. That is why you agree the value. In my day job I have a quite elderly containership which is insured for, roughly, her scrap value. In the event of serious damage, the underwriters are certainly going to pay out a CTL. We all know that!

The point I was trying to make earlier was that lots of us overvalue our boats and pay higher premiums than the reality of replacing the boat like for like

 

[Kukri]

The point I was trying to make earlier was that lots of us overvalue our boats and pay higher premiums than the reality of replacing the boat like for like

I agree. And most of us under value our personal effects, and suchlike on board. In insuring merchant ships, it is a "custom of the trade" that a ship's total sum assured should be roughly ten per cent over her book value, or her market value, whichever is the higher. The ten per cent is to cover the time value of the money whilst the claim is collected and the costs of finding and buying another one. Merchant ship insurance goes in for other tricks like insuring part of the total (typically 80%, it varies between markets) on "all risks" terms, with the balance insured on a "freight and disbursements policy" which pays only in the event of total loss. Thus damage which may require repairs which look as if they might come close to four fifths of the insured value will result in the Underwriters "tendering Notice of Abandonment" (offering a Constructive Total Loss).

 

[BabaYaga]

A marine policy is an agreed value policy. That is why you agree the value. In my day job I have a quite elderly containership which is insured for, roughly, her scrap value. In the event of serious damage, the underwriters are certainly going to pay out a CTL. We all know that!

My experience with Pantaenius is that they are somewhat flexible when it comes to agreed value. If so, it is up to the customer to decide (within limits) which value to have insured – and which premium to pay.
The point I was trying to make was that with someone like P, that has a 'new for old' cover, the costs for repairing or replacing after serious damage (partial loss) might well exceed the boat's market value, especially for older boats of modest size.
So if you would like to have full compensation if you need to replace, like in awol's example, mast, rigging and sails, then you would have to take these costs into account when deciding the agreed value. In other words, it might be wise to insure to a value that is higher than the market value of the boat.

 

[awol]

I think he rates the Y policy as one of the best (hope I remembered this correctly - can anyone confirm others?). If Pantaenius push too hard, that is where I will be looking next. -]

It was a couple of years ago but Y's quote for as close to like-for-like cover as I could get was more expensive than Pantaenius. If Y still have their 18 hour rule it would be a deal breaker even if they were cheaper.

 

[LadyInBed]

It was a couple of years ago but Y's quote for as close to like-for-like cover as I could get was more expensive than Pantaenius. If Y still have their 18 hour rule it would be a deal breaker even if they were cheaper.

Yes, if you sail solo and the conditions are restrictive it doesn't matter how cheap the premium is.
I changed from Craftinsure to Pants because they said I had to have two other crew for Biscay.

 

[c.buck]

I'm not surprised to see all private and pleasure insurance quotes go up. If anyone wants to find out why, then I would recommend having a google search of 'lloyds marine news'. The Lloyds of London market is behind most marine insurance, perhaps except Pantaenius, and it is a good indicator of what the market is doing. It was only a few months ago that major marine insurers like Brit, Barbican, Aspen, etc. have been instructed by Lloyds to pull out of marine insurance in order to preserve their profitability. Call it a hardening of the market / withdrawal of capacity.

Now put that into practice - less insurers offering to cover yachts means: a) prices were notoriously too low and b) that there is less competition so prices rise naturally.

That being said, there are plenty of insurers who still have capacity to write at reasonable prices, the trick is finding the right one to suit you. If you are looking for racing cover (occassionally or seasoned) then Pantaenius are a good shout. If you don't want racing and are happy to sacrifice claims expertise then Y Yacht Insurance aren't bad, if you have a special vessel and are looking for out of the norm terms, then Fastnet Marine will be your best friends, if you are looking at overseas, then a continental European insurers will be hard to beat on price. Company owned vessels, US insurers are very well set up for this.

This does however take a lot of time. I'd use a comparison site like CompareYachtInsurance.com and get them to pull the quotes together for you. At the end of the day, i'd rather be able to choose which insurance I want to go with than be told my renewal is increasing or my insurer can't offer the same terms anymore!

Either way... make sure you get your insurance sorted before you send it downwind in 30 knots on your Melges 24!

 

[Sea Devil]

Thanks for the interesting plug for a comparison site like CompareYachtInsurance.com

I had a look and it seems a fairly sensible way although if you use a service like Yachtmaster Insurance https://www.yachtmasterinsurance.co.uk they do virtually the same thing and you are dealing with people who know boats and sailing and offer a bespoke personal service.

One of the things that concerned me looking at the compare the yacht site was it did not mention single handed sailing for example. I got the feeling they were business people looking to turn a buck rather than sailing people ....

 

[Sandy]

Y Yacht Insurance aren't bad

Y are fine if you don't single hand; their 18 hour rule is a tad restrictive.

 

[c.buck]

Thanks for the interesting plug for a comparison site like CompareYachtInsurance.com

I had a look and it seems a fairly sensible way although if you use a service like Yachtmaster Insurance https://www.yachtmasterinsurance.co.uk they do virtually the same thing and you are dealing with people who know boats and sailing and offer a bespoke personal service.

One of the things that concerned me looking at the compare the yacht site was it did not mention single handed sailing for example. I got the feeling they were business people looking to turn a buck rather than sailing people ....

Nice work Sea Devil, i've not come across yachtmaster insurance before, they look like a broker? I've had a quick look as I do have to admit it's been a while since I sued compare yacht insurance, but they do seem to have an option to receive a single handed sailing quote? not sure if I'm up for single handed sailing yet myself though, so best give that option a wiiiiiide berth

 

[Mikedefieslife]

Finding it impossible to get hull insurance on a 41 year old boat for travelling outside the EU, and some singlehanding over 18 hours.

Y Yacht have been the most helpful, and can insure either side of an Atlantic crossing, but would want a new survey and rigging report after the crossing.

Pants flat out said they don't insure outside the EU.

Topsail - computer says no

GJW - can't do outside the EU

Towergate - again won't cover outside the EU

Amlin - says no

Still waiting to hear from Preuss and admiral. At this rate it looks like I might be buying some 'paper only' insurance from Edward Williams.

 

[miha90]

I pay around £130 for my 31ft sailing boat at Pantaenius. Liability insurance only.