Insurance implications of having your boat delivered by a delivery skipper ?

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aidancoughlan

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I'm looking at having my boat delivered from Holland to Dublin (around 700 miles). Around 7 days estimated by a delivery skipper with 2 crew on board.
The delivery skipper says the boat needs to be fully insured for the trip under my insurance, and my Insurer's have suggested (by phone) that since the delivery skipper is being paid by me, that I need the delivery skipper to have insurance (though this is not at all clear to me in the policy PDF document).

I think they would intend to sue the delivery skipper if he runs the boat up on the rocks due to negligence, but it's unclear from the policy where I would stand if he didn't have insurance they could lean on, or if they would leave me on my own to sue him.

I'll have to go back to them (both) to clarify, but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience or knowledge of issues that can arise during paid sea deliveries with respect to insurance? What is the norm ?
 
When our boat was delivered by a delivery skipper we had our own insurance in place and I think this is fairly standard.

You should speak to your insurance broker however it might be that what you are being told is correct as you need cover for usual damage etc to vessel and the delivery co needs professional indemnity insurance. You might look at a delivery firms website e.g. Halcyon or PYD which should state what cover they hold in event of negligence by the delivery team .
 
If you insure your next door neighbours house and it burns down you would not benefit from the policy as you would have suffered no loss. The insured must have a financial interest in the property.

Therefore you (and not the skipper) must insure your own boat including third party liability cover (which is normally included) and be certain the insurance will be valid while the delivery skipper and crew is in charge of it.

The delivery skipper should insure himself in case he is found to be at fault of damage caused to your boat and your insurers might pursue him for recovery of their loss. This is not the same as the skipper insuring your boat .

I write only from a simple understanding of the basic principles and open to offers if anyone thinks differently.
 
When I paid to have my boat delivered from Milford Haven to the Clyde, GJW said that my insurance would cover the trip, the same as for anyone else I allowed to use the boat. There was no suggestion that he needed cover as well, but they recommended that I give him a letter authorising him to use the boat, which I did.
 
The question for your insurance company is will every possible loss or liability attributable to you be covered,

It maybe that they will not cover negligence by the skipper or his liability to the crew, but might still cover your boat if it he drives it onto the rocks, there are several ways for you to be drawn into a mess if things go wrong.

I would not use a skipper that did not have the usual insurances, whatever they maybe.
 
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I have worked as a delivery skipper. It is usual practice for the owners insurance to cover the delivery. You are giving permission for someone to use your boat, the skipper you appoint is up to you.

You need to insure your boat and this will cover the skipper and any crew onboard. Standard practice and standard with insurance policies... If you need the delivery skipper to insure the boat then expect to pay for the cost plus a service fee.
 
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temptress said:
I have worked as a delivery skipper. It is usual practice for the owners insurance to cover the delivery. You are giving permission for someone to use your boat, the skipper you appoint is up to you.

You need to insure your boat and this will cover the skipper and any crew onboard. Standard practice and standard with insurance policies... If you need the delivery skipper to insure the boat then expect to pay for the cost plus a service fee.
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Agree with what you say but if your paying to have your boat delivered the team need to have some kind of liability insurance .
When I brought my last boat we needed to sail both boat from Croatia to Greece in the begin we was going to get a friend to help , Pants when asked about the cove told us unless he is being paid the skipper and boat was fully covered , if he was being paid the skipper need to have a insurance to cover him self ( not the boat) in case he damaged the boat .
End the end co skipper sail one and I sailed the other .
 
Major_Clanger said:
Therefore you (and not the skipper) must insure your own boat including third party liability cover (which is normally included) and be certain the insurance will be valid while the delivery skipper and crew is in charge of it.The delivery skipper should insure himself in case he is found to be at fault of damage caused to your boat and your insurers might pursue him for recovery of their loss. This is not the same as the skipper insuring your boat .
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Thanks for all the replies folks, all add to the pot. Above gets to the nub of it I think. My own 'normal' Insurance policy will definitely be in place throughout (insuring the boat & TP liability). Like someone else mentioned, it covers the boat, and extends to any friend to whom I give permission to use the boat.

However, the Insurance company (by phone) said verbally that the skipper needs to be Insured for Professional Indemnity , and that the latitude for me to allow a friend sail her with permission does not extend to professional skippers - although I see nothing about this anywhere in the policy document (its the standard Navigators & General policy here https://www.navandgen.zurich.co.uk/...hash=89D278BCB6F9004F2AF6D63A1D86F769B6AE9E28).
They were a bit vague about how my own insurance would be compromised if the skipper did not have Professional Indemnity (I've asked for written clarification), but I suspect they will cover any eventually, and seek to sue the skipper if there is a hint of negligence, and that the verbal insistence on PI is to protect themselves.
The skipper (though very reputable) was a bit vague on his website about Insurance - saying only that the boat must be covers by owners insurance throughout. Again, I suspect he has PI to protect himself, but is not advertising it so as not to encourage claims. Again, I'll seek clarification.

All in all, I'm surprised the yacht policy doesn't go into this explicitly, it must be a common occurance. I'll let you know what clarification I get from both parties.

Many thanks!
 
If the skipper does not have insurance and a claim against him should be made they could just take his house.Not really your problem.
 
Aidan
You might want to google insurers rights of subrogation. If a loss occurred and your hull insurers indemnified you they might wish to seek to recover losses from the delivery skipper if negligent and hence the need for PI cover. Personally I would be surprised if any reputable delivery company isn't able to produce evidence of the PI covers existence even if not the specific terms. The N&G policy won't mention it though as their right to claim arises having paid you out for your loss by stepping into your shoes to pursue any negligent third party be it the delivery company or some other third party . You might want to ask for a copy of the delivery company standard terms and conditions though. It might be worth contacting the RYA though for more detailed info on topic of what paid delivery companies who are in business for this purpose should have in place.
 
Thanks for all the replies above folks. Sorry it's taken me a while to get back on this...

The insurance company is Navigators & General, it;s the standard yacht policy available on their website here

The boat itself would have been covered under the policy even with a paid delivery skipper in charge ....
It was a little unclear to me at first, but in the end, after some digging they clarified that the yacht itself *would* still be covered for damage to the yacht itself, even if a delivery skipper was in charge when an accident happened. I had initially gotten the impression in earlier phone calls that damage to the yacht under an employed delivery skipper would not have been covered.

However, third party liability cover would have been unavailable when under care of a delivery skipper ...
However, the limitation in cover when under the care of an employed/paid delivery skipper was on the SECTION B: Third Party Liability side of the policy. This part of the policy covers you for "Liability to others" ... described in summary as "We will cover your legal liability and/or the costs associated with the defence against such a claim, up to the limit stated within the policy documentation,to compensate other people if someone dies or is injured, or property is lost or damaged, as a result of your interest in the insured property. We will provide this cover for you and those in control of the insured property with your permission."
This Liability cover however is later limited by a condition "What you are not covered for: ....... liabilities assumed under contract,incurred solely by an agreement entered into by you".
In other words, if the boat were skippered by an unpaid friend, and an accident happened damaging another boat or injuring another person you would be covered if you were sued as owner of the yacht and damages were awarded against you. However, that cover does not extend if a paid delivery skipper was in charge at the time.

The insurance company wanted to be assured that the skipper had his own liability insurance... so they could sue in the event of negligence being proven
In relation to the above clause on page 18
"What you are not covered for: • liabilities assumed under contract, incurred solely by an agreement",
the underwriters clarified by email that "The Skipper you are using should have their own Skipper Liability Insurance."
and commented further that "This means that if the Vessel was damaged whilst under the charge of Delivery Skipper and he was proved negligent we would be able to claim against his Skipper Liability Insurance."

It's still not 100% clear to me : it sounds from the comment above that they may actually defend the policyholder in this scenario, and seek to recoup losses from the delivery skippers insurance, but the policy wording doesn't appear so obviously generous to the policyholder.

You can get an endorsment on the policy to ensure full cover as if you were delivering the boat yourself...
In the end, they agreed to make an endorsement on the policy for a 14-day period to ensure that the policy cover was not diminished in any way even while a paid delivery skipper was on in charge. It might be arguable that taking this endorsement may be paying to protect the delivery skipper rather than myself (if you believe the delivery skipper would be sued personally by a third party if an issue arose), but this was a lot simpler than wondering what "would happen if". There was a nominal extra sum charged, which IMO was well worth it for peace of mind and not significant in the big scheme of things.

Hope this helps clarify, or at least add some information to the mix. Whether 100% necessary or not, if I were doing it again, I think I would also seek that endorsement again rather than worrying about the skippers own liability insurance and what kind of a mess might result in the case of a claim !
 
MartynG said:
If the skipper does not have insurance and a claim against him should be made they could just take his house.Not really your problem.
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I carry out professional deliveries and this is correct, despite many delivery companies insisting on skippers paying for worthless policies aimed at private charters.
It is also, IMO after much research, impossible to get meaningful PL cover for a delivery skipper.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...Skipper-s-liability-insurance-recommendations
 
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Quiddle said:
I carry out professional deliveries and this is correct, despite many delivery companies insisting on skippers paying for worthless policies aimed at private charters.
It is also, IMO after much research, impossible to get meaningful PL cover for a delivery skipper.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...Skipper-s-liability-insurance-recommendations
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I use this one:

Extended Skippers Liability Insurance from Hamburger Yachtversicherung Schomaker. Think thats been mentioned before. Was 225 euros for a year and Ive done three so far covered by this year and possibly two more to go.
 
If you put your car in a garage and the mechanic takes it out for a road test they are using the garages own insurance if it gets crashed (which has happened many times)
I suspect that an incident has occurred with this particular Insurance Company where a boat has sustained damage on a delivery trip perhaps caused by negligence of the delivery skipper and the insurance company has now tightened up on who they insure.
 
Insurers are, possibly deliberately :), vague on many issues, including this one.
It's certainly the case that effective cover is almost impossible to obtain for individual skippers - I'm including the German policy referred to in earlier post in that analysis. And, frankly, delivery skippers are not paid enough to carry that burden of either cost or responsibility. By contrast, however, the larger operators will possibly have their own policies in place - PYD certainly do.
What beats me, though, is how an insurance company, having taken your premium for cover, which protects you, or a friend, justifies laying off their exposure, if something goes awry, whilst a paid skipper, presumably more experienced, is in charge.
The wording to seek from an insurer is ‘the delivery skipper is covered as though he were the insured…’ You will find both Admiral and Pantaenius willing to adopt that approach, provided they know the skipper, or firm involved. In my experience, though, Navigators are a complete pain in this regard.
Hope that helps.
 
JumbleDuck said:
When I paid to have my boat delivered from Milford Haven to the Clyde, GJW said that my insurance would cover the trip, the same as for anyone else I allowed to use the boat. There was no suggestion that he needed cover as well, but they recommended that I give him a letter authorising him to use the boat, which I did.
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Same with me when the previous owner delivered from Troon to Holyhead.
 
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