Insurance for an electric yacht conversion

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big_s

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Hi all,

Trying to get a contemporary take on this so haven't delved too deeply into outdated info on the site.

I am looking for insurance for a 26ft yacht (built in the 1970s) with a an electric motor conversion powered by lithium batteries. The install is part of a full renovation that includes complete replacement of and upgrades to the yacht electrical system.

Some insurers I have spoken to ask for professional installation and sign off, others just sign off, however professional installers I have spoken to will not sign off diy installs.

Anyone out there had any experience of getting a similar diy install insured? Who with? What were the requirements?

I am based in North Wales so would also be interested to hear from anyone who can sign off diy installs or has details of outfits that can at realistic cost.

Cheers!
 
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I think the bill for getting sign off won't be much less than getting an install - they still have to go over every cable, every connector, check the cable routing, check the equipment is appropriate and installed as per the manual. You're asking them to risk being sued for a system they didn't install.
 
Now the MCA has published MGN 550 (M+F) Amendment 1: Electrical installations - guidance for safe design, installation and operation of lithium-ion batteries, no-one is likely to certify a DIY installation. The guidelines are possibly (probably) way OTT, but they are there - do you have a fireproof steel ventilated battery box ????

15 months ago I was considering replacing my own (coded) boat's service batteries with lithium. I'm very glad I didn't as I'd now have to make major alterations to the boat to comply with the new "rules" for coded boats. The new rules assume all lithium batteries are dangerous, whatever the chemistry.

I hope the MCA realises that some "lithium" batteries are safer than others, and revises the recommendations. In the meantime I can see insurance companies getting twitchy about "lithium" batteries.
 
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ONLY insurance companies can define what they mean. I'd go back to them and ask for a written statement regarding the qualifications or otherwise of the individual signing off the job.

Says grumpy engineer who sat on a national standards board.
 
jwilson said:
Now the MCA has published MGN 550 (M+F) Amendment 1: Electrical installations - guidance for safe design, installation and operation of lithium-ion batteries, no-one is likely to certify a DIY installation. The guidelines are possibly (probably) way OTT, but they are there - do you have a fireproof steel ventilated battery box ????

15 months ago I was considering replacing my own (coded) boat's service batteries with lithium. I'm very glad I didn't as I'd now have to make major alterations to the boat to comply with the new "rules" for coded boats. The new rules assume all lithium batteries are dangerous, whatever the chemistry.

I hope the MCA realises that some "lithium" batteries are safer than others, and revises the recommendations. In the meantime I can see insurance companies getting twitchy about "lithium" batteries.
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MGN 550 (M+F) Amendment 1: Electrical installations - guidance for safe design, installation and operation of lithium-ion batteries

We have already seen mentions of insurers questioning battery types. So, how do these new guidelines leave those who already have lithium batteries on board as insurers "may" have a get out due to non-compliance with good practice?
 
Graham376 said:
MGN 550 (M+F) Amendment 1: Electrical installations - guidance for safe design, installation and operation of lithium-ion batteries

We have already seen mentions of insurers questioning battery types. So, how do these new guidelines leave those who already have lithium batteries on board as insurers "may" have a get out due to non-compliance with good practice?
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I read the fine print on my renewal and it had fair bit on Lithium batteries. I don't think they differentiated between chemistries at all.

It covered all "electronically driven equipment" (electronically??). That's scooters, jet skis, skateboards, boards, bikes, tender, main propulsion, etc. if above 100Wh.

MUST ONLY be charged during daylight hours.
No batteries to be charged when unattended.
Only used and stored in accordance with manufacturers instructions.
Only use charging equipment supplied by or approved by the manufacturer.
MUST have an aqueous vermiculite dispersion fire extinguisher on board.
 
big_s said:
Hi all,

Trying to get a contemporary take on this so haven't delved too deeply into outdated info on the site.

I am looking for insurance for a 26ft yacht (built in the 1970s) with a an electric motor conversion powered by lithium batteries. The install is part of a full renovation that includes complete replacement of and upgrades to the yacht electrical system.

Some insurers I have spoken to ask for professional installation and sign off, others just sign off, however professional installers I have spoken to will not sign off diy installs.

Anyone out there had any experience of getting a similar diy install insured? Who with? What were the requirements?

I am based in North Wales so would also be interested to hear from anyone who can sign off diy installs or has details of outfits that can at realistic cost.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
Have you already done the conversion or is this a proposed change?
Sadly this does seem to be getting tricky, particularly doing DIY.
Also, I would recommend nobody should ever refer to “lithium batteries” without being clear which type - LiFePO4 seem to be more acceptable than most other types for boats, but some insurers don’t seem to differentiate.

To add to the complexities, there is a view that a change of engine type - or even just increasing diesel engine power rating - could necessitate recertification under RCD/RCR - certainly according to this article from our hosts PBO - Boat certification: Do I need my vessel re-certified? - Practical Boat Owner
Changes to the engine. An increase in hp/kW output due to a replacement engine or replacing the diesel engine with an electric motor will almost certainly need an RCD/RCR reassessment, especially when considering the battery bank that’s going to be needed.

Sadly I don’t think I have helped your problem - but it is something the Government and the industry is going to need to tackle if it is to meet its goals of “decarbonisation” for small craft - to netting zero by 2050 - Decarbonising smaller vessels
 
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Many thanks to everyone for their comments.

I purchased my electric motor, controller, mounting frame, chargers, solar panels, LiFePO4 batteries and lots of related components some time ago hoping to avoid the effects of inflation. At the time of their purchase I could have had the electrical system installation signed off by a knowledgeable surveyor but other commitments delayed the install. I am now potentially many thousands of pounds out of pocket, money that took me several years to raise through a part time job. With the best of intentions, I sadly find myself seriously considering ditching the electric motor installation and trying to find an suitable, unwanted diesel engine.

I understand the insurers perspective, having spoken to several recently, but their lumping all lithium ion battery types together for risk assessment is frustrating. While not perfect, LiFePO4 batteries, when installed and used correctly, appear to be incredibly safe (see the ABYC message re LiFePO4 batteries). I certainly would not expect to find highly restrictive clauses hidden in the fine print of a policy, as Mistroma noted, especially when some chargers are stated as being safe to leave unattended - see Victron BlueSmart chargers for example. Hopefully this whole landscape will undergo a process of refinement that eventually makes it easier for diy, small scale installations, like the one I intended, a much more feasible proposition.

Maybe I was just a little too early to the party.
 
Sorry to hear your tale. Who supplied the main components - was it a marine supplier?
It might be worth contacting them to see if they can help you locate a more accommodating insurer.
Without this they have no market to sell their products to.

Edit - No need to say if you don't want to, but what brand of electric drive did you buy? If recognised marine brand (Oceanvolt, Torqedo, ePropulsion etc) their suppliers might be able to help. If not recognised marine products that may make insurers twitchy - even if good kit.
 
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dunedin said:
Sorry to hear your tale. Who supplied the main components - was it a marine supplier?
It might be worth contacting them to see if they can help you locate a more accommodating insurer.
Without this they have no market to sell their products to.
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I did this many years ago with car insurance.
I swapped by Allegro which was insured through the AA for a second hand Alfasud Quadrofoglia with 85bhp as a 24 year old.
I called them up and they wanted 5000 per year for insurance.
I called up many other insurers and they wanted similar amounts or just flat refused.

In the end I dug out the card the Alfa salesmen had given me and called them up.

No problem. Insurance 300 per year.

So well worth going through the "network".
 
dunedin said:
Sorry to hear your tale. Who supplied the main components - was it a marine supplier?
It might be worth contacting them to see if they can help you locate a more accommodating insurer.
Without this they have no market to sell their products to.

Edit - No need to say if you don't want to, but what brand of electric drive did you buy? If recognised marine brand (Oceanvolt, Torqedo, ePropulsion etc) their suppliers might be able to help. If not recognised marine products that may make insurers twitchy - even if good kit.
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As you may have guessed my budget is very tight. Rather than going through a marine supplier I went through an EV company. They were fantastic. I described the application and they provided the motor (Motenergy), configured controller (Sevcon) and wiring loom all based on propeller size, prop shaft rpm, reduction gearing and a custom throttle profile. All was bench tested and so it is effectively a drop in system. This avoided the 'marine' price premium. That said they have no notion of marine insurance woes.
 
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dunedin said:
Have you already done the conversion or is this a proposed change?
Sadly this does seem to be getting tricky, particularly doing DIY.
Also, I would recommend nobody should ever refer to “lithium batteries” without being clear which type - LiFePO4 seem to be more acceptable than most other types for boats, but some insurers don’t seem to differentiate.

To add to the complexities, there is a view that a change of engine type - or even just increasing diesel engine power rating - could necessitate recertification under RCD/RCR - certainly according to this article from our hosts PBO - Boat certification: Do I need my vessel re-certified? - Practical Boat Owner
Changes to the engine. An increase in hp/kW output due to a replacement engine or replacing the diesel engine with an electric motor will almost certainly need an RCD/RCR reassessment, especially when considering the battery bank that’s going to be needed.

Sadly I don’t think I have helped your problem - but it is something the Government and the industry is going to need to tackle if it is to meet its goals of “decarbonisation” for small craft - to netting zero by 2025 - Decarbonising smaller
Click to expand...

By 2025😮?!!

Not unrealistic at all.. 🤣
 
Stemar said:
What is the value of the boat? I suspect that a 26 footer from the 70s (Centaur?) isn't worth a great deal, probably less than all the kit you've already bought, so what about going with third party insurance?
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The kit I purchased is certainly worth more than the boat would be without an engine - not a centaur.

I spoke to Pantaneus about this. While they said they didnt speak for the industry, they would still require a professional sign off even for third party.

What I don't want to do is try to get insurance by ommission of facts, i.e. go through a website that doesnt require details of installation, and then subsequently find I am not covered.

If you know of an insurer that might provide insurance in full knowledge of a diy installation then please pm me.
 
Mistroma said:
I read the fine print on my renewal and it had fair bit on Lithium batteries. I don't think they differentiated between chemistries at all.

It covered all "electronically driven equipment" (electronically??). That's scooters, jet skis, skateboards, boards, bikes, tender, main propulsion, etc. if above 100Wh.

MUST ONLY be charged during daylight hours.
No batteries to be charged when unattended.
Only used and stored in accordance with manufacturers instructions.
Only use charging equipment supplied by or approved by the manufacturer.
MUST have an aqueous vermiculite dispersion fire extinguisher on board.
Click to expand...
I will have to read my insurance, but never gave it a thought when I purchased my epropulsion. Not to sure why daylight hours is mentioned but I "practice" all the others even with my electric pedal assist bike at home. For me it just means possibly purchasing the fire extinguisher though I have the water mist type on board.
 
Boathook said:
I will have to read my insurance, but never gave it a thought when I purchased my epropulsion. Not to sure why daylight hours is mentioned but I "practice" all the others even with my electric pedal assist bike at home. For me it just means possibly purchasing the fire extinguisher though I have the water mist type on board.
Click to expand...

I might check current insurance as it's the same policy. I don't remember seeing this and suspect it's new.

Daylight hours charging could be a problem. Imagine arriving at a marina late on the day and wanting to catch an early tide. Could be plenty of time to recharge with crew onboard and awake. However you can't because the sun has set.
 
Mistroma said:
I might check current insurance as it's the same policy. I don't remember seeing this and suspect it's new.

Daylight hours charging could be a problem. Imagine arriving at a marina late on the day and wanting to catch an early tide. Could be plenty of time to recharge with crew onboard and awake. However you can't because the sun has set.
Click to expand...

Presumably any solar charge controllers would also have to be turned off if not aboard during daylight, regardless of usage of shore power.
 
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