Insurance for an electric yacht conversion

[jakew009]

It seems to me that this ill advised advice in the form of; MGN 550 (M+F) Amendment 1: Electrical installations - guidance for safe design, installation and operation of lithium-ion batteries , is the equivalent of the man with a red flag walking in front of a car.

I was waiting for someone to say this. That whole guidance note is a load of absolute nonsense.

If insurance companies start stipulating compliance with that just about every single lithium battery install on a boat so far is non compliant.

 

[big_s]

Is MGN550 specific to commercial craft rather than private pleasure craft?

 

[[70521]]

Yet another instance of a "miraculous" new technology outrunning legislators/regulators? ... and perhaps common sense?

You might be surprised at the speed some regulators work, by that I mean quickly not slowly. The usual stumbling block is the legal part of getting stuff approved!

Regulators in the technology field are usually hugely experienced engineers who can see some young whipper snapper with a bright new idea and has not fully understood where it can and will go wrong due to simple physics a mile off.

I was as keen as mustard to get new stuff out there. When you pose a searching question about how a product would react in a certain set of conditions and could see on the faces of the team trying to get a product past the final sign off hurdle that they had never even considered the situation even though it was bleeding obvious.

Or perhaps you would prefer we back to the first industrial revolution with the accompanying death and injury rate?

Space X is going to make a very interesting case study in 50 years time.

 

[Graham376]

Is MGN550 specific to commercial craft rather than private pleasure craft?

There are no regulations in the UK for owner modifications to existing pleasure craft. However, new builds have to be built to a standard so regulations apply to meet RCD etc. No doubt the new lithium battery guidelines will be included in certification at some point.

I suspect existing battery installations in coded commercial vessels may have to be updated.

 

[dunedin]

There are no regulations in the UK for owner modifications to existing pleasure craft. However, new builds have to be built to a standard so regulations apply to meet RCD etc. No doubt the new lithium battery guidelines will be included in certification at some point.

I suspect existing battery installations in coded commercial vessels may have to be updated.

Not entirely true. Certain types of modifications to existing pleasure craft formally require recertification under RCR / RCD - for example changing engine propulsion type, or even increasing engine power (possibly a materiality level of 15% or so may apply). See post #9 above.

The more material risk though is that whilst not legal requirements, insurance companies can seek to impose whatever standards they choose on pleasure craft if they think these are material to the risk (and hence profitability).

 

[billskip]

insurance companies can seek to impose whatever standards they choose

This is the problem.

 

[big_s]

Not entirely true. Certain types of modifications to existing pleasure craft formally require recertification under RCR / RCD - for example changing engine propulsion type, or even increasing engine power (possibly a materiality level of 15% or so may apply). See post #9 above.

The more material risk though is that whilst not legal requirements, insurance companies can seek to impose whatever standards they choose on pleasure craft if they think these are material to the risk (and hence profitability).

The RCD didnt come in to force until the late 90s. It is only boats built after the introduction of the RCD that might require recertification. My yacht was built in the 1970s and so I believe no recertification would be necessary. See here for a more detailed breakdown.

 

[smert]

I just renewed with GJW today... this is in the General Conditions:

14. Any lithium batteries on board must be stored and used in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations and must not be left
unattended whilst charging. In addition, there must be a fully operational lithium specific hand held fire extinguisher on board.

There's no other reference to Lithium or LiFePO4 in the docs. Looks like I'll have to get a Lithion ion fire extinguisher if I'm going to plug my phone in.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... There's no other reference to Lithium or LiFePO4 in the docs. Looks like I'll have to get a Lithion ion fire extinguisher if I'm going to plug my phone in.

That's an interesting point about mobile phone charging. In the offshore industry there have been incidents of laptops and phones going on fire after being left on beds, desks while the worker was on shift. At the initial safety induction this risk has now been highlighted and unattended charging banned. In many cases, all private electrical devices have to be inspected by the responsible person electric, before they can be used. Airlines carry special bags to place phones and other devices in if they start smoking or overheat. I guess the risk is migrating its way down the insurance food chain.

AvSax fire containment bags for batteries AvSax fire containment bags and the kind of electronic devices that can go in them

 

[Graham376]

The RCD didnt come in to force until the late 90s. It is only boats built after the introduction of the RCD that might require recertification. My yacht was built in the 1970s and so I believe no recertification would be necessary. See here for a more detailed breakdown.

Mine is also pre RCD so I can modify it in any way I want, subject of course to insurers acceptance.

 

[billskip]

That's an interesting point about mobile phone charging. In the offshore industry there have been incidents of laptops and phones going on fire after being left on beds, desks while the worker was on shift. At the initial safety induction this risk has now been highlighted and unattended charging banned. In many cases, all private electrical devices have to be inspected by the responsible person electric, before they can be used. Airlines carry special bags to place phones and other devices in if they start smoking or overheat. I guess the risk is migrating its way down the insurance food chain.

AvSax fire containment bags for batteries AvSax fire containment bags and the kind of electronic devices that can go in them

What about yachts with several hand held vhf's that are usually put in their charging cradles and left unattended.

 

[Minerva]

What about yachts with several hand held vhf's that are usually put in their charging cradles and left unattended.

Or kindles, tablets, smart watches, phones, walkie talkie headsets, laptops, headphones... the list is near endless!

 

[Graham376]

I just renewed with GJW today... this is in the General Conditions:

14. Any lithium batteries on board must be stored and used in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations and must not be left
unattended whilst charging. In addition, there must be a fully operational lithium specific hand held fire extinguisher on board.

There's no other reference to Lithium or LiFePO4 in the docs. Looks like I'll have to get a Lithion ion fire extinguisher if I'm going to plug my phone in.

That's not very clear, do they mean if any lithium battery is on board (phone/tablet/computer/etc), an extinguisher is required or, extinguisher only required if being charged on board.

Since having a mobile router burst open when charging (but no fire) we no longer leave anything on charge overnight or plugged in when we're ashore, except of course flooded la main and starter banks, charged by solar.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

What about yachts with several hand held vhf's that are usually put in their charging cradles and left unattended.

Or kindles, tablets, smart watches, phones, walkie talkie headsets, laptops, headphones... the list is near endless!

As far as I know, the incidents on the rigs are a mix of non original chargers, damaged chargers or in some cases original batteries such as the Apple lap top battery that overheated.

All of the kit in the “list is endless” and the VHF radio left in its charger are extra fire risks. However, the shear volume of kit suggests it’s not that big a deal.

Like every risk in life you do what you feel is right for you, assuming you are aware of the risk. Based on my rig experience I tend to not leave stuff on and charging when unattended. Sometimes I do.

 

[dunedin]

Or kindles, tablets, smart watches, phones, walkie talkie headsets, laptops, headphones... the list is near endless!

I suspect that these sorts of mobile devices being left charging unattended may in fact be exactly the sort of thing the insurers are now getting nervous about.

The horrific fire on a dive cruise boat in the USA where a lot of people (perhaps 18?) died will be very much on the insurers radar. I don’t think any specific cause was 100% proven, but there is a strong possibility (perhaps likelihood) that the fire was started amongst the multiple mobile devices left charging overnight whilst people slept.

Also, from discussion on the Mobo forum, there seem to have been some major and expensive boat losses (fortunately as far as I know without loss of life) due to fire, believed to be related to charging of lithium batteries in water toys.

Then, perhaps most relevant to the OP, there was the recent tragic deaths of 2 people crossing from Canada to UK (if I recall correctly). They abandoned ship very quickly into a dinghy - but failed to be able to grab any emergency beacons etc. They died some time later having not set off a distress search. Importantly it is reported that they DIY installed an electric drive system, potentially also using a Nissan Leaf battery pack (ie not LiFePO4). As the boat was lost in deep water, there is no proven cause of the deaths. But there was apparent fire damage to one of the lifejackets. And with the sudden abandonment without being able to access any emergency beacons etc (and perhaps not using the liferaft?) the insurers will suspect a catastrophic runaway battery fire caused the loss, and prevented the crew from accessing their safety gear.

So there is a number of incidents that may indeed be causing insurers to be more cautious in this respect.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Has anyone found an insurance company who will cover the following items I have on board which have Lithium ion batteries integral to their design?
Hand held VHF Radio
EPIRB
2 @ PLB
Laser SOS flare
2 @ high powered torches
4 @ small pocket torches
2 @ portable drills
2 @ random orbit sander
1 @ potable circular saw
1 @ ePropulsion Spirit 1kW
2 @ laptops
1 @ samsung tablet
1 @ samsung mobile phone
4 @ 105 amp hour Lifos drop- in replacement batteries. These are designed by the Manufacture to be a direct replacement for lead acid batteries, and as such, are installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. In addition the internal BMS disconnects if the current exceeds 200amp, and the system is externally fused at 500amps.
I still think that insurance companies putting unrealistic condition of use on a wide range of products is I'll thought out.

 

[Scubadoo]

Has anyone found an insurance company who will cover the following items I have on board which have Lithium ion batteries integral to their design?
Hand held VHF Radio
4 @ torches
EPIRB
2 @ PLB
Laser SOS flare
2 @ high powered torches
4 @ small pocket torches
2 @ portable drills
2 @ random orbit sander
1 @ potable circular saw
1 @ ePropulsion Spirit 1kW
2 @ laptops
1 @ samsung tablet
1 @ samsung mobile phone
4 @ 105 amp hour Lifos drop- in replacement batteries. These are designed by the Manufacture to be a direct replacement for lead acid batteries, and as such, are installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. In addition the internal BMS disconnects if the current exceeds 200amp, and the system is externally fused at 500amps.
I still think that insurance companies putting unrealistic condition of use on a wide range of products is I'll thought out.

It seems better to have a policy that doesn't mention lithium restriction but an all risk policy covering fire.