Inside helm position - real life experience?

[Supertramp]

Having had a pilothouse, it's fine if you like motoring. but I missed sailing, and no longer have one. One reason against them, for me, is how badly they go to windward, that;s possibly my main objection, hence you either do a lot of tacking and don't get anywhere or you use the engine because you're lucky if it will go 40 degrees to the wind.
Sailing gentlemen don't put the engine on....

The problem of poor windward performance is more down to overall displacement and hull/keel design. Admittedly pilothouses are often bolted onto heavy, long keel designs. But I think owners of Sirius, Faurby, Hunter Channel 27/31, Moody Eclipse and similar where the underpinning design is a normal sailing yacht would disagree with you.

There is the benefit of being able to helm inside and keep watch below but the real benefit is having a light space with forward visibility for living in on passage and at anchor.

Interestingly, my proportion of cruising hours under power seems to match that of normal cruising yachts despite the "baggage" of keel form and heavy displacement. But then I do avoid tacking to windward!

 

[NormanS]

Sailing gentlemen don't put the engine on....

Naa, Gentlemen don't beat to windward.

 

[noelex]

One reason against them, for me, is how badly they go to windward, that;s possibly my main objection,

This depends on the particular yacht.

A lot of motorsailors are a pilothouse design, but it is also possible to construct a conventional cruising yacht design with a pilothouse at least for larger-sized yachts.

If well designed, the windage of a pilothouse is no more than that of a typical cabin top and dodger.

 

[Wansworth]

One answer is to have a paid crew so any inclement weather can be weathered in the saloon.I read an account of an expensive yacht of sizable proportions dowsing the crew in the cockpit on its delivery trip down channel Ina breeze,I guess a sprayhood or dog house would have spoilt the drawing

 

[Wansworth]

There was a little cutter designed for Maldrin Drummond by a well known east coast designer whose name escapes me that had a proper wheelhouse that on the drawing board seemed too big but when I saw it it looked perfect .A wheelhouse is the perfect perch to be drinking tea as a storm howels through the moorings.The name of the boat was Gang Warily……designed by J Francis Jones

 

[Supertramp]

While true, it's worth bearing in mind that only 24 E-38s and 38 E-43s were built. Some luck or patience might be needed.

I've held off pitching in on this, as I don't have the real-life-experience requested, but I was keen on this idea when looking for a comfortable boat to sail on the west coast a few years back. I did some research and concluded that the options were pretty limited; and the compromises become quite stark as the boats get smaller. I didn't want a big boat with the associated running costs (people's definitions vary but for two of us anything over 40' seems excessive to me).
Headroom requirements push rooflines upwards, increasing windage & raising the boom. Some careful design can mitigate this but it pushes costs up and may have other impacts. The inside helm seems to work better on bigger boats, where the lines more easily accommodate the interior spaces.

If the OP is looking at bigger boats (mid-40' or more?) then an inside helm is achievable with fewer compromises.

On advice, we opted for a windscreen+sprayhood combo. It provides pretty good weather protection, though not the full pipe+slippers experience. The sprayhood can easily be lowered to improve windage and there are quite a few well-built boats available in this configuration, hence more choice at any given time & place.

Thats good advice.

Having seen a Sirius 35 up close, I think a good pilothouse design is possible under 40ft but at an eyewatering price.

The Cromarty is a beamy boat at 12ft on a 34.5ft hull length. The result is low heel angles and deep, wide side decks giving the ability to access the lee side of the pilothouse in most conditions. Plus a proper doorway/steps rather than a ladder for cabin access.

The choice really depends on what features matter most to you (and how much you want to spend).

 

[rogerthebodger]

I have a 50 ft steel boat with a fin keel and a steering station inside a wheelhouse and an aft outside cockpit

15 meter main mast, the only issue is sail trimming when steering from inside when weather is bad,

I do have a right cockpit cover mainly to keep the sun off the cockpit, but the cockpit can be covered in completely. the is a anf cabin below the aft cockpit

Pic below beached for antifouling

https://flic.kr/p/WM5MLk

https://flic.kr/p/WYQrjP

Outside steering statin

https://flic.kr/p/WooSSd

 

[nevis768]

The problem of poor windward performance is more down to overall displacement and hull/keel design. Admittedly pilothouses are often bolted onto heavy, long keel designs. But I think owners of Sirius, Faurby, Hunter Channel 27/31, Moody Eclipse and similar where the underpinning design is a normal sailing yacht would disagree with you.

There is the benefit of being able to helm inside and keep watch below but the real benefit is having a light space with forward visibility for living in on passage and at anchor.

Interestingly, my proportion of cruising hours under power seems to match that of normal cruising yachts despite the "baggage" of keel form and heavy displacement. But then I do avoid tacking to windward!

I don't know about the others but the SAD of an Eclipse is 13.38 so I can't see that being much good beating in Scotland where the wind is always able to be on the nose. I was going to buy an Eclipse but poor sailing performance put me off.

 

[Wansworth]

I have a 50 ft steel boat with a fin keel and a steering station inside a wheelhouse and an aft outside cockpit

15 meter main mast, the only issue is sail trimming when steering from inside when weather is bad,

I do have a right cockpit cover mainly to keep the sun off the cockpit, but the cockpit can be covered in completely. the is a anf cabin below the aft cockpit

Pic below beached for antifouling

https://flic.kr/p/WM5MLk

https://flic.kr/p/WYQrjP

Outside steering statin

https://flic.kr/p/WooSSd

Looks a proper boat!

 

[NormanS]

I don't know about the others but the SAD of an Eclipse is 13.38 so I can't see that being much good beating in Scotland where the wind is always able to be on the nose. I was going to buy an Eclipse but poor sailing performance put me off.

It's an attitude of mind to think that the wind is always on the nose. One of the great beauties of sailing on the West Coast of Scotland is the amazing variety of potential destinations. The secret is to be flexible. If your preferred destination is directly upwind, use your imagination and head for somewhere else. There's plenty of choice.

 

[Supertramp]

I don't know about the others but the SAD of an Eclipse is 13.38 so I can't see that being much good beating in Scotland where the wind is always able to be on the nose. I was going to buy an Eclipse but poor sailing performance put me off.

That does seem very low, given that my "motorsailer" manages 18 (unladen!). I think that later Eclipses had larger SA?

 

[Wansworth]

Looks a proper boat!

Your not offended?,

 

[Minerva]

It's an attitude of mind to think that the wind is always on the nose. One of the great beauties of sailing on the West Coast of Scotland is the amazing variety of potential destinations. The secret is to be flexible. If your preferred destination is directly upwind, use your imagination and head for somewhere else. There's plenty of choice.

“Sorry boss - not coming to work this week. The wind would be on the nose down the sound of mull for the next few days. See you next week - wind willing.”

Given the above scenario, what’s the probability of my P45 reaching my house before I do?

 

[dunedin]

“Sorry boss - not coming to work this week. The wind would be on the nose down the sound of mull for the next few days. See you next week - wind willing.”

Given the above scenario, what’s the probability of my P45 reaching my house before I do?

When doing the two (once three) week summer cruise using work holidays, we always looked well ahead at the forecasts - ideally a week. Made sure if we ventured NW of Ardnamurchan we did this early in the trip and worked out our window back South.
Same for a bare boat charter holiday - make sure you plan for the return to base and then work the cruise route to fit that.
(But as long as not too bumpy, we enjoy a moderate wind beat - because we bought a boat that was optimised for good sailing. Tacked up and down the Sound of Mull countless times - often the only boat doing so, and on many occasions overtaking the boats motoring directly upwind.)

 

[rogerthebodger]

Your not offended?,

no not in the least as I purchased a basic hull and deck and fitted it out myself

Fitting out recorded here

Roger Shaw’s albums | Flickr

 

[nevis768]

It's an attitude of mind to think that the wind is always on the nose. One of the great beauties of sailing on the West Coast of Scotland is the amazing variety of potential destinations. The secret is to be flexible. If your preferred destination is directly upwind, use your imagination and head for somewhere else. There's plenty of choice.

I think you missed the west coast joke about the wind always on the nose...and the advice from your large ego

 

[NormanS]

I think you missed the west coast joke about the wind always on the nose...and the advice from your large ego

?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

?

The joke is based on a shared experience, an old perception of many decades of Scottish Clyde and West Coast sailors that the wind is always blowing from ahead e.g. whether in or out of a loch, up or down a sound. It's been around for a long time. Your "large ego" is probably based on the surety of your opinions, often expressed about how you do something that is right, stood the test of time for many decades, dismissing of others experiences.

I have no idea who you are, what you sail, or where you sail, live or whatever, beyond what you post on here that I have read. I think it is just a typical west coast attitude and if I had to guess, a Dive Superintendent or OIM.

You may be flattered or not, but this is what Google AI says about you: -

"NormanS" is a well-known and active member on the YBW (Yachting and Boating World) forum, widely recognised as an experienced sailor who primarily sails on the West Coast of Scotland. He frequently shares his local knowledge and insights about cruising in Scottish waters, particularly regarding anchorages, weather patterns, and the challenges of the area such as lobster pots and the nature of the sea lochs.
Key details about "NormanS":
Location/Sailing Area: West Coast of Scotland, including the Clyde, Inner and Outer Hebrides, and as far north as Shetland.
Boat: He has mentioned he owns a 36ft moderately heavy ketch.
Anchor Setup: He is a proponent of genuine Bruce anchors, using a 20kg model with 10mm chain, and has discussed anchoring techniques and secondary anchors in detail.
Forum Activity: He joined the forum in November 2008 and has posted thousands of messages, making him a respected contributor with significant experience.
Sailing Philosophy: He describes himself as a cruising sailor who values good anchorages and local knowledge, often pointing out that the best sailing in Scotland is off the beaten path.
His contributions are generally considered knowledgeable and helpful by other forum members.

Fair winds.

 

[NormanS]

The joke is based on a shared experience, an old perception of many decades of Scottish Clyde and West Coast sailors that the wind is always blowing from ahead e.g. whether in or out of a loch, up or down a sound. It's been around for a long time. Your "large ego" is probably based on the surety of your opinions, often expressed about how you do something that is right, stood the test of time for many decades, dismissing of others experiences.

I have no idea who you are, what you sail, or where you sail, live or whatever, beyond what you post on here that I have read. I think it is just a typical west coast attitude and if I had to guess, a Dive Superintendent or OIM.

You may be flattered or not, but this is what Google AI says about you: -



Fair winds.

Wow! Thanks for the background. Not so sure about the Google bit.
The forum would be a gey dull place if we didn't have opinions.

 

[Romeo]

While true, it's worth bearing in mind that only 24 E-38s and 38 E-43s were built. Some luck or patience might be needed.

I've held off pitching in on this, as I don't have the real-life-experience requested, but I was keen on this idea when looking for a comfortable boat to sail on the west coast a few years back. I did some research and concluded that the options were pretty limited; and the compromises become quite stark as the boats get smaller. I didn't want a big boat with the associated running costs (people's definitions vary but for two of us anything over 40' seems excessive to me).
Headroom requirements push rooflines upwards, increasing windage & raising the boom. Some careful design can mitigate this but it pushes costs up and may have other impacts. The inside helm seems to work better on bigger boats, where the lines more easily accommodate the interior spaces.

If the OP is looking at bigger boats (mid-40' or more?) then an inside helm is achievable with fewer compromises.

On advice, we opted for a windscreen+sprayhood combo. It provides pretty good weather protection, though not the full pipe+slippers experience. The sprayhood can easily be lowered to improve windage and there are quite a few well-built boats available in this configuration, hence more choice at any given time & place.

I am glad you pitched in because it is real life experience of what I am going through now..... that is considering the boat to buy. I think the balance of the replies is that inside helm position is good for motoring in poor weather, but not for sailing or close manoeuvring. I am looking for something 36 feet to 40 feet, and more the deck saloon on a sailing boat hull than a pilot house on a MFV type hull. I do not need sparkling sailing performance..... this will be my first foray into Bermudian rig, so the chances are the boat will go to windward better than I am used to. I do though want to be able to sail off a lea shore in emergency, and do not want to be too quick to reach for the engine controls at any point. Thanks for all the helpful/ on point replies.