Inside helm position - real life experience?

[Romeo]

I am looking to buy a boat for use primarily on west coast of Scotland. Although I have once before been on a voyage in a yacht (Seastream 43) which had a helm in the deck saloon, we were crossing the Med, and at no point helmed from inside. I would really welcome feedback from those who have sailed yachts with a choice of outside and inside helms, how much they actually use the inside position, and whether there are conditions where they would simply not use one or the other. TIA!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I knew someone who had a Vancouver 34 Pilot house and sailed a lot on the West coast of Scotland and Ireland they found the inside helm useful especially when motoring. I have also spoken a few times with someone that sails a Boreal 55 and they say that all their night passages and poor weather passages under autopilot are conducted from inside.
I think it very much depends on the boat as to how useful the inside helm can be.

 

[Stemar]

For the W coast of Scotland, I'd say get one and fit a windscreen wiper - a big, strong one

I have to confess to not having any personal experience of inside steering, but I've seen a good few threads over the years about foul weather gear and there's always some smug git with inside steering talking about carpet slipper sailing.

 

[Supertramp]

I have a Cromarty 36 which has inside and outside helm positions.

I use the outside helm 90% of the time. I use the inside position when its raining hard, much spray flying or when its perishing cold. Also for night watches. My outside helm position is well sheltered just behind a sprayhood. I always helm outside when in confined waters.

In practice I sail on autopilot a lot of the time, but its useful to be able to navigate inside and keep an eye out.

A deck saloon with an inside steering option is a good choice, with a proper outside helm for the majority of the time. Plus you get to see out at anchor. Perfect for the Northern climate. But they are not common designs so you may have to hunt hard. Nauticats offer this and the Seastream 43 is a great, if sizeable, example. Definitely avoid wheelhouse only steering.

 

[newtothis]

For the W coast of Scotland, I'd say get one and fit a windscreen wiper - a big, strong one

I have to confess to not having any personal experience of inside steering, but I've seen a good few threads over the years about foul weather gear and there's always some smug git with inside steering talking about carpet slipper sailing.

To be fair, Roger Taylor said he spent more time in slippers than sea boots and he only had a Corribee, and later an Achilles.

 

[Arcady]

Having an inside helm position is definitely a plus for the West Coast of Scotland. We use ours always for night passages and usually when it’s raining. Some seem to manage with just autopilot buttons inside, but having a proper helm and engine controls makes all the difference.

 

[johnalison]

No experience but we once crossed northern Netherlands with a Nauticat 33 in utter vile weather with horizontal rain and cold to boot. Each day we would arrive covered head to toe with Musto’s best to meet them in their wheelhouse still in their pyjamas.

 

[LittleSister]

I have an LM27, which can be steered either from the cockpit with a tiller, or with a wheel inside a small wheelhouse. I love it. The wheel can be disconnected from the cockpit, so you're not dragging that about when steering by tiller, and also the tiller lifts straight out if you're not using that (e.g. to keep the cockpit clear if your using the cunning folding cockpit table (seats 2 or 6!) they lifts out from the back of the cockpit.

It is not the sort of boat I was originally looking for, but in the course of my searches for a replacement boat viewed an early Southerly (28?) that had an inside steering position (I'm not sure quite how practical - visibility seemed poor from inside), but the idea if being able to sit inside in bad weather (or hot sun) certainly revised my search criteria, and when I came across the LM, with its numerous clever design features and distinctive Scandi-vibe interior, I was sold. There's an opening hatch above the inside seated helm position, so you can be partially open to the elements, or even stand up with head and shoulders outside.

The LM27 coachroof and wheelhouse looks a bit 'upright', in part due to the pronounced sheer and (handy) low freeboard centrally compared to modern boats, but parked next to a sporty wedge-shaped cabin boat one time realised his sprayhood was actually taller than the LM wheelhouse.

It does have its downsides. I dived inside when it started raining just after dark on one trip, so didn't feel or see the wind suddenly shifting with the arrival of a squall, and the unintended crash gybe resulting tore the mainsheet block out of its tracks and left it thrashing round trying to brain me as I tried to tame the boom.

Also, one's moral fibre does tend to loose stiffening as a result of all that comfort!

Minor details. The LM's windscreen wiper really could do with a washer, as the screen gets smeared with salt from spray over the bow unless it's torrential rain. That washer's somewhere on the to-do list, along with a larger and pantographic wiper to sweep the whole of that rectangular screen (ideally all three of them, but that won't happen), and a outlet from the heater to demist the screen interior, rather than having to keep wiping it with a cloth or chamois.

But yes, my oilies and seaboots now live mostly hung up, rather than worn all day, since I got the LM.

 

[Supertramp]

I have an LM27, which can be steered either from the cockpit with a tiller, or with a wheel inside a small wheelhouse. I love it. The wheel can be disconnected from the cockpit, so you're not dragging that about when steering by tiller, and also the tiller lifts straight out if you're not using that (e.g. to keep the cockpit clear if your using the cunning folding cockpit table (seats 2 or 6!) they lifts out from the back of the cockpit.

It is not the sort of boat I was originally looking for, but in the course of my searches for a replacement boat viewed an early Southerly (28?) that had an inside steering position (I'm not sure quite how practical - visibility seemed poor from inside), but the idea if being able to sit inside in bad weather (or hot sun) certainly revised my search criteria, and when I came across the LM, with its numerous clever design features and distinctive Scandi-vibe interior, I was sold. There's an opening hatch above the inside seated helm position, so you can be partially open to the elements, or even stand up with head and shoulders outside.

The LM27 coachroof and wheelhouse looks a bit 'upright', in part due to the low freeboard compared to modern boats, and pronounced sheer, but parked next to a sporty wedge shaped boat one time realised his sprayhood was actiually taller than the LM wheelhouse.

It does have its downsides. I dived inside when it started raining just after dark on one trip, so didn't feel or see the wind suddenly shifting with the arrival of a squall, and the unintended crash gybe resulting tore the mainsheet block out of its tracks and left it thrashing round trying to brain me as I tried to tie the boom.

Also, one's moral fibre does tend to loose stiffening as a result of all that comfort!

Minor details. The LM's windscreen wiper really could do with a washer, as the screen gets smeared with salt from spray over the bow unless it's torrential rain. That washer's somewhere on the to-do list, along with a larger and pantographic wiper to sweep the whole of that rectangular screen (ideally all three of them, but that won't happen), and a outlet from the heater to demist the screen interior, rather than having to keep wiping it with a cloth or chamois.

But yes, my oilies and seaboots now live mostly hung up, rather than worn all day, since I got the LM.

I have a single wiper on one wheelhouse window, no washer. I apply Rain X water repellent treatment a couple of times a year and it helps keep things clear.

LM are nice boats and very versatile for 27ft.

 

[LittleSister]

I have a single wiper on one wheelhouse window, no washer. I apply Rain X water repellent treatment a couple of times a year and it helps keep things clear.

As it happens I bought some RainX, but haven't yet got round to applying it. Thanks for the tip/prompt.

 

[DoubleEnder]

I did a few trips on an Island Packet 40 something which only had inside steering. There were times when this was lovely, but I really missed ‘proper’ steering.

 

[westhinder]

I have sailed on a 45’ pilothouse yacht with an outside wheel and inside autopilot controls on a trip from the Azores to Nova Scotia and another from France to Ireland early in the season. In both cases nearly all watchkeeping while on passage was done inside in great comfort, the outside steering position was only used during sail changes and when entering or leaving harbour. I absolutely love it for poor weather.
If I were to buy another boat (which is highly unlikely as I intend to keep my Starlight till the end of my sailing days) I would most probably look for a pilothouse or a decksaloon.

 

[Marceline]

this is an interesting thread. We're currently looking for a larger boat and have viewed a few centre cockpit boats, but I recently viewed a Konsort Duo 29' and was amazed at how much space and storage was in there. I really loved it's inner helm too - could imagine that would be great in dreadful weather but also strong sunshine/help mitigate the UV.

Seemed to have nearly everything we were looking for in a 33' boat but in a more compact 29' hull. Thought the design was very clever and have been thinking lots of maybe going for one of them. Would be very interested if anyone's sailed/owned one what they thought of the boat and the sailing areas they cruised in theirs and especially how they rated it's inner helm.

 

[noelex]

I have sailed on a 45’ pilothouse yacht with an outside wheel and inside autopilot controls on a trip from the Azores to Nova Scotia and another from France to Ireland early in the season. In both cases nearly all watchkeeping while on passage was done inside in great comfort, the outside steering position was only used during sail changes and when entering or leaving harbour. I absolutely love it for poor weather.

This has also been our experience.

The visibility from inside is as good as outside. Cruising Scotland in the winter was a delight. It also meant on cold, wet days at anchor, we could lie back, enjoy the wildlife and scenery, while the diesel heater kept us warm.

 

[bikedaft]

If you have a choice, I would suggest go for it. Esp W coast Scotland (!)

We do not have a wheelhouse, but at night and in poor weather run tiller lines to top of companionway steps, snug in there, under the spray hood with a wash board or two up.

Any fool can be uncomfortable. Sure during th3 day, and good weather, we bought the bought for the fresh air experience, and helping outside. But to have the option makes sense. We leave our boat in over the winter as well.

Next boat, I will get a wheelhouse... (vast majority of our sailing is W coast Scotland.)

 

[E39mad]

Have sailed a number of boats with deck saloon/wheel house arrangements.

A second internal wheel (in this case an older Southerly) was OK but it added "drag" to the steering feel as there was a second rod link to the steering quadrant. Ultimately a dual station autopilot where you can change direction but keep watch would have sufficed. Mainly used for motoring or sailing in light winds. Been in a few Fishers where the primary steering position is within the wheel house. Works well on these although most steering systems were hydraulic and therefore lacked any feel. A tiller could be used in the cockpit on the odd occasion you wanted to steer from outside. Also been in a Vancouver 34 Pilot - they didn't have internal wheels as standard although I think one had one fitted. One disadvantage of the 34 Pilot over the "Classic" coachroof model was the lack of vision forward when sat in the cockpit. You needed to stand up to see over the deck saloon or have some angle when sailing in order to see around it. This can be true for some deck saloons where you have a deep aft cockpit. Nauticats amongst some others have a raised cockpit so you can see over the wheelhouse whilst sat down.

As many have already mentioned the reality for most is that the deck saloon is a place to shelter when motoring and sailing in anything over 10 or 12 knots is done from the cockpit. A good autopilot system is all that is necessary in these situations to steer the boat from down below.

The advantages of a deck saloon (light, views, additional stowage, tankage) out way their negatives in my opinion and can be superb Northern European boats.

 

[capnsensible]

Have sailed a couple of Southerlies and a Fisher with inside steering. Very nice in cold and rain. Any idiot can be uncomfortable!

However, I really don't mind getting comfortable outside. Even when it's honking down with rain.

Have done about 10k miles on various motorboats. Flybridge especially. Great for sunny days and harbour maneuvering. But at mb speeds, on long trips, inside is welcome.

 

[dunedin]

…..

We do not have a wheelhouse, but at night and in poor weather run tiller lines to top of companionway steps, snug in there, under the spray hood with a wash board or two up.

….

Next boat, I will get a wheelhouse... (vast majority of our sailing is W coast Scotland.)

To my mind a deckhouse with good visibility is worth considering ……… providing that it doesn’t compromise the other aspects of the boat and sailing experience too much.
There are some (generally expensive) boats that combine a wheelhouse with a good sailing hull, keel and rig - Sirius for example.
But many others are too much of a compromise of their sailing ability for me.
A very good sized sprayhood can be a very effective alternative, particularly if combined with a Scandinavian style windscreen like ours. Surely nobody actually helms by hand these days when motoring in the rain, or indeed when sailing except when it is fun to do so (I enjoy sailing upwind or fast downwind, otherwise Antoine is at the helm!).

So a really good below decks autopilot and a large sprayhood are the essentials in my mind for all year sailing in Scotland. The only time we need oilskins is a strong wind from astern - but then will be at the helm surfing along at 8kts or more.

 

[noelex]

As many have already mentioned the reality for most is that the deck saloon is a place to shelter when motoring and sailing in anything over 10 or 12 knots is done from the cockpit. A good autopilot system is all that is necessary in these situations to steer the boat from down below.

That is what we do. We have no inside wheel but adjust our heading using our wireless autopilot controls.

This is not just for mild sailing conditions. In very rough conditions, the pilot house is the place to be. Our autopilot is much stronger than any human and does not become distracted or tired.

 

[LittleSister]

. . . A second internal wheel (in this case an older Southerly) was OK but it added "drag" to the steering feel as there was a second rod link to the steering quadrant.

The LM27 (and also the less common LMs 23, 24, 26, 28, 30 and 32) have a very simple mechanism for connecting and disconnecting the wheelhouse wheel steering from the rudder shaft, leaving just the tiller (socket) connected. I guess something similar could be constructed relatively easily in many boats (including those with wheels in both positions) that don't have this valuable feature.

The wheel steering is connected to an arm (could be a quadrant) that freely rotates on the rudder shaft. It is positioned immediately above another rotating arm (could also be a quadrant) which is fixed to the rudder shaft. A hinged L shape plate on the end of the upper freely rotating wheel-steering arm engages with a slot in in the fixed lower arm/quadrant, connecting the two, and remains in place simply by gravity. To disconnect the two on the LM you reach under the aft deck and flip the hinged L up and backwards, disengaging the upper arm. The hinged L when disengaged just rests on top of the upper arm. Reconnecting simply involves aligning the two arms (by turning either the cockpit or wheelhouse steering), and flipping the L plate down to link the two arms together again. (One LM owner reported adding a short cable to lift and drop the L plate, operated by a small lever in the cockpit rather than having to reach under the aft deck and do it by hand, largely blind, which is not difficult but has the potential to nip one's fingers.)

. . . Also been in a Vancouver 34 Pilot - they didn't have internal wheels as standard although I think one had one fitted. One disadvantage of the 34 Pilot over the "Classic" coachroof model was the lack of vision forward when sat in the cockpit. You needed to stand up to see over the deck saloon or have some angle when sailing in order to see around it. This can be true for some deck saloons where you have a deep aft cockpit. Nauticats amongst some others have a raised cockpit so you can see over the wheelhouse whilst sat down. . .

The wheelhouses of the LM23, 24 and 27 were originally open at the rear and forward visibility from the cockpit would have been largely straight through the wheelhouse windows. All those in the UK I have seen, including mine, have had the rear of the wheelhouse enclosed. The windows in the later addition aft enclosure of my wheelhouse are too small for best visibility through the wheelhouse (and these would be too expensive and complicated for me to replace). I am tall and can see over the wheelhouse roof, just, but my ex could not. This restricted visibility from the cockpit is a minor annoyance rather than serious problem when in open water, but when manoeuvring in marinas etc. I stand on the cockpit benches (or with my head and shoulders out of the wheelhouse roof hatch when steering from there).

The later LM26, 28, 30 and 32 have a cunning arrangement whereby the aft of the wheelhouse is enclosed by half-height bulkheads either side, and above these is fully transparent, enclosed by perspex type 'window' panels that can be slid down inside the half-height bulkheads leaving the wheelhouse very open. The central door, also top half perspex, lifts out from a slot in the cabin sole. (The wheelhouse LMs don't have a bridge deck - it's just a shallow step down from the cockpit to the wheelhouse, and then a couple more shallow steps into the saloon. When you find yourself without a bridge deck, and the sky doesn't fall in, you wonder how you ever put up with all that tedious clambering and climbing for all those years!).