Inland Waters Helmsman's Certificate

[tinkicker0]

Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

The previous thread dealing with the ICC and its acceptability in Europe has got me thinking.

One postee stated that the froggies were more impressed with the Inland Helmsman's Certificate than with the ICC inland endorsement.

So if one is in posesstion of the the ICC inland endorsement and thus the RYA have certified the holder as a competent skipper for inland waterways, will this allow the ICC holder to apply for the Helmsman's certificate without further training?

You are entitled to one free certificate per year with your RYA membership fee and it would be rude not to take advantage of it.

What do you think?

 

[Hurricane]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

[ QUOTE ]
One postee stated that the froggies were more impressed with the Inland Helmsman's Certificate than with the ICC inland endorsement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think that it was the (Ocean)froggie that was impressed /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
It seems that he isnt impressed with ANY of the qualifications.

 

[ebbtide]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

.Adding CEVNI to my Yachtmaster produced an Inland endorsement but NOT the Helmsman's Cert so have signed up for that as a separate test - the 2-day course reduced by half because of experience.

That makes sense - only a test on a proper canal can demonstrate lock procedures without draining the next pound!

I see that the MCA are asking for RYA Helmsman (NOT the IWA one) for Cat A & B waterways if you take passengers.

 

[Tranona]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

You are not comparing like with like. The CEVNI endorsement to the ICC is obtained after sitting a written examination on the rules and regulations. It is nothing to do with one's ability to handle a boat.

The only connection between RYA QUALIFICATIONS and ICC/CEVNI is that the latter are issued automatically to holders of specific levels of the former plus the exam for CEVNI. Those who do not have the necessary RYA qualification need to take a short test.

The information on the RYA website makes it clear that the ICC is not a qualification, just a government approved statement (to another government) that the holder is deemed competent to operate the boat.

 

[pheran]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

I confess - twas I. But you need to read the thread correctly - I made no mention of 'froggies'. I referred to 'abroad' and there are more foreign parts than just France.

Back to the question - you've got things the wrong way round. RYA certify your competence on inland waterways when you sucessfully complete the Inland Waters Helmsman Certificate course. With this in your grubby little mit, you can then apply for an ICC with the inland box ticked. Its a practical boat handling course at about the same level as the Daze Kipper practical but with the differences you would expect. When I did the course, about a thousand years ago so things might have changed, it was scheduled over 2 days although with previous experience you could cut this down to one ie you just undertook the practical tests to demonstrate your abilities without the tuition.

 

[Refueler]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

[ QUOTE ]
Back to the question - you've got things the wrong way round. RYA certify your competence on inland waterways when you sucessfully complete the Inland Waters Helmsman Certificate course. With this in your grubby little mit, you can then apply for an ICC with the inland box ticked....

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I think if you go to RYA wbsite and Knowledge base ... ICC abroad - you'll find that RYA state clearly Inland waters given on ICC only with production of Pass of CEVNI test. I cannot find any reference to any other qualification to get Inland Waters ticked on an ICC.

When I discussed this with RYA earlier in the year - they said that they didn't design the ICC - they only got given the job of implementing it. How true that is ?

<span style="color:blue"> If anyone reading this has got Inland Waters ticked Yes on their ICC and NOT got a CEVNI - I would be extremely interested to know how - as I want to push RYA to get the Commission to overturn this error of requiring a CEVNI when many countries don't require.</span>

 

[pheran]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

CEVNI is an endorsement to the ICC, not a pathway to it although these days you have to do the CEVNI short answer test to get the 'inland' box ticked. But as I understand it, this is in addition to your enabling qualification ie a practical (not theory) test. You surely wouldn't expect to get an Internation Certificate of Competence just by answering correctly 11 out of 14 questions on a ten minute test paper. Some years ago you could 'prove' your competence and get an ICC just on the say so of your club's Commodore or Training Officer. But the RYA introduced practical tests to preserve the value of the ICC ( whatever you think this is - and opinions vary!)

 

[Tranona]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

Actually, the test is very little more than what you describe. Takes less than 2 hours during which you demonstrate basic boat handling, pilotage "skills" and knowledge of buoyage. Once you have the ICC it is renewed automatically every 5 years. Then you take the CEVNI "exam" for the Inland Waterways endorsement.

 

[pheran]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

I don't know why you seem to denegrate 'basic boat handling, pilotage "skills" and knowledge of buoyage'. When you're mixing it with heavy commercial traffic travelling at 10+knots on narrow continental waterways, you'd be surprised how useful they become. Large commercial locks can be very dangerous places and from the cock-ups I've witnessed, particularly by coastal based helmsmen for whom its not an everyday experience, some training and evidence of competence seems a very good idea. Some of the very best boat handlers I have encountered are amongst the Thames-based fraternity.

 

[Tranona]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

Not sure I was denigrating anything!. I was merely pointing out that the ICC was not a qualification in the same way that an RYA certificate is. And it can be issued following a very basic test as well as to holders of an appropriate RYA certificate. Similarly the CEVNI endorsement is a simple test of the regulations - no need to go anywhere near a boat!

It would, indeed be very different if there was a "real test" of boat handling skills, but I guess that is a long way off - like never, while the French government exempts drivers of hire boats from even their own sponsored CEVNI requirements!

 

[Refueler]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

[ QUOTE ]
CEVNI is an endorsement to the ICC, not a pathway to it although these days you have to do the CEVNI short answer test to get the 'inland' box ticked. But as I understand it, this is in addition to your enabling qualification ie a practical (not theory) test. You surely wouldn't expect to get an Internation Certificate of Competence just by answering correctly 11 out of 14 questions on a ten minute test paper. Some years ago you could 'prove' your competence and get an ICC just on the say so of your club's Commodore or Training Officer. But the RYA introduced practical tests to preserve the value of the ICC ( whatever you think this is - and opinions vary!)

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I don't knock the ICC - as there needs to be something to show you can handle a boat in basics. That is it's principle function - to show you have passed a basic level of understanding. As it says on ICC itself :

"The holder of this document has successfully passed the tests necessary to demonstrate his/her competence to operate pleasure craft."

The CEVNI unfortunately has been tacked onto the ICC as an Inland Waters requirement - which in fact is false. The CEVNI is not required as widely as some may think. In fact if you check you'll find that many EU and European states / others don't require it at all.

The Latvian equivalent to ICC gives Inland and coastal up to 3nm offshore ... WITHOUT any reference or requirement for CEVNI endorsement. The test is a written paper in the appointed office, until recently Car Licencing centres, consisting of 8 correct answers out of 10 mutliple choice questions.

 

[tinkicker0]

Re: Inland Waters Helmsman\'s Certificate

Thanks all.
As a newbie last year and not wishing to be set loose in a 40 knot boat without any training, I decided the best way to prove my competence to the insurers should a mishap occur, was to to get my ICC with both inland and coastal endorsements.

To get this it was recommended that I get:

RYA Powerboat level 2 (coastal).
The RYA Powerboat Level 2 (inland).
And the CEVNI test as a separate entity.
Which I did.

The training organisation wanted me to take a heavily discounted Safety Boat course as well, so I could help out on sailing days but the prospect of dunking into a cold reservoir or the North Sea in Febuary tested my mettle a little too much. BRRRRR

The RYA then issued my ICC.

I guess getting hold of a free Helmsman's Certificate was a pipe dream. Should have known that I would not get anything as a freebie, when people pay good money for the same thing.

I think I will give the helmsman's certificate a miss. Don't fancy 2 days on a narrowboat, down the cut, since I don't go anywhere near one.
I will wait until I am old enough to feel comfortable driving a Volvo or Jag and enjoy wearing those comfy tartan zip up bootee slippers around the house before signing up for that particular course.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks for all your replies. Very illuminating and typically, as with all UK educational certificates, there is no consensus or surety as to what they are worth, parity with other foreign licences or what they actually mean to Johnny Foreigner. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Refueler]

To add ...

Error continues on ....

Reply from RYA rec'd today :

<span style="color:blue"> Dear Nigel



Thank you for your e-mail.



Unfortunately, we are unable to add Inland waters to your ICC Certificate unless you have taken the CEVNI Test and section 11c has been signed on the ICC application form attached by the CEVNI tester confirming that you have passed this test. The CEVNI test consists of 14 multi choice questions on the Euro Regs for Inland waters and can be conducted at most of our Practical Training Centres. Please refer to our website under the links below for further details regarding this test and a list of Training Centres in your area that can conduct this. I have also attached a sample CEVNI test paper for you.
</span>

Not really a lot of use to me out here !! So the fight goes on ...

 

[Tranona]

Re: To add ...

Not sure why you have a problem. According to the RYA, Latvia has not adopted the ICC and no certificate of competence is required - assuming you are visiting in a UK registered ship. This would only apply within territorial waters. If Latvia has different requirements for Inland Waterways and it is prepared to accept the CEVNI endorsement (even though it has not signed up to UN Resolution 40), then take the test.

Presumably if you intend using a Latvian registered boat then they can set their own licencing requirements, just as they do in Greece.

I have difficulty with your criticism of the RYA. They are not responsible for what another state may or may not accept, unless that state has signed up to Resolution 40. Even then it may restrict the use of the ICC, and there is no obligation to accept it as an alternative to their own national qualification. See the article in the RYA magazine that I often refer to.

 

[Refueler]

Re: To add ...

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure why you have a problem. According to the RYA, Latvia has not adopted the ICC and no certificate of competence is required - assuming you are visiting in a UK registered ship. This would only apply within territorial waters. If Latvia has different requirements for Inland Waterways and it is prepared to accept the CEVNI endorsement (even though it has not signed up to UN Resolution 40), then take the test.

Presumably if you intend using a Latvian registered boat then they can set their own licencing requirements, just as they do in Greece.

I have difficulty with your criticism of the RYA. They are not responsible for what another state may or may not accept, unless that state has signed up to Resolution 40. Even then it may restrict the use of the ICC, and there is no obligation to accept it as an alternative to their own national qualification. See the article in the RYA magazine that I often refer to.

[/ QUOTE ]

The article you refer to never got out here - the Autumn Mag never arrived. So I cannot comment on that.

To put it better - my boats stay upriver of the deemed point of inland water commencement. Therefore I must satisfy Latvian req'ts for Licence to cover inland waters. Latvia allows you to use any foreign licence that shows competence for Inland waters and type of boat or use it's being put to - as long as it's not Latvian Reg'd. Mine are UK SSR reg'd. I do have Latvian Licence, but that is not the issue.
ICC is a document to show competence in conformity of Resolution 40, which replaces Resolution 14 which Latvia and many other countries still follow. They both specifically state Inland water transport.
CEVNI as RYA admits was an addition - not a part of the resolution - I accept I have to search the Resolution more than my discussion with RYA revealed to validate that - but basically even RYA say the CEVNI is overstated as always needed to satisfy Inland waters part of ICC.

Why should I travel back to UK to take an unnecessary test, that more countries do not accept than do ? Why should I spend money on it ? Personally and my conversation with RYA appeared to have agreement verbally - that ICC would be better to have a separate entry specifically stating CEVNI to satisfy those few countries where CEVNI is req'd. Then the Inland waters bit could be ticked by other means - such as mateys Inland Waters Helm ticket or even my Latvian Ticket as evidence ....

As a Senior Certificated Deck Officer and having navigated various ships up rivers ... ie 1000 ton Acid Ships up to Ipswich ... Seismic Vessels intgo some extremely tight areas and rivers ... it's a bit galling to be knocked back on this. It was bad enough to have the Sail bit refused even though I presented my Discharge Book copy showing DoT stamp and signature for Lifeboat training - a simple check of dates would have shown easily I had trained in sailing Lifeboats as well as rowed / powered.

The ICC is a good document - but it needs sorting as it has errors that may not affect the majority - but have serious consequences for some. You may say - Oh but Nigel - you have Latvian Licence, that's luck really as I do not read or write Latvian - the required language ... do you ?

The RYA person I spoke to - he agrees I have a valid point and has agreed to bring it up in the Cmmtee that looks at matters as this. So let's see.