INEOS AC 2-0

[Laser310]

In fairness to AM, it seems that there were problems from the crash that just couldn't be made whole. The rudder has been identified as one thing that wasn't entirely fixed, but probably there were others as well.

Obviously at the speeds these boats travel, and with so little boat actually in the water, the rudder needs to function perfectly.

If they knew they had a boat that had handling problems, it is no surprise that they avoided engaging in the starts.

 

[Bobc]

Something to put the speed of these boats into perspective. A video a powerboat doing 60mph

 

[LONG_KEELER]

What are the latest odds?

• Ineos Team UK 3/5
• Luna Rossa Challenge 7/5

Fair ?

What winds does the team think will best suit Ineos ?

 

[bedouin]

What are the latest odds?

• Ineos Team UK 3/5
• Luna Rossa Challenge 7/5

Fair ?

What winds does the team think will best suit Ineos ?

Sounds about right.

The best winds for Ineos are light/shifty ones. Ben/Giles are streets ahead of the competition as tacticians and have shown they can beat LR pretty much every time in a tactical race.

We don't really know how the boats will compare on boat speed.

 

[Bobc]

What are the latest odds?

• Ineos Team UK 3/5
• Luna Rossa Challenge 7/5

Fair ?

What winds does the team think will best suit Ineos ?

Who knows. 3 weeks seems to be a long time in this event. LR have clearly improved, but we won't know what improvements Ineos has made until the start gun goes off.

You only have to look at the odds before the round robins to see how things can change.

 

[Bobc]

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I'll admit to not having watched the vmg display as often as I should, but Luna Rossa seems to outpoint both Britannia and Patriot. Anyone noticed if they're able to sustain it, or is it just a defensive trap that opponents need to avoid walking into?

 

[Laser310]

I'll admit to not having watched the vmg display as often as I should, but Luna Rossa seems to outpoint both Britannia and Patriot. Anyone noticed if they're able to sustain it, or is it just a defensive trap that opponents need to avoid walking into?

In general, the boat that wins a W/L race will have the better average VMG

At times the boats sail hotter angles and go a bit faster, and at other times they sail higher/deeper, and go a bit slower. Also, the target TWA will vary depending on TWS, so if boats are in different wind speeds, they will be sailing different TWA's

if you want to look at the stats, they are available for each race. This is the data transmitted by each boat, and VMG is wrt the wind measured on that boat - so when you compare VMG's between the boats be aware that they may be sailing in different wind speeds.

here is the link to the data - just choose a race and the quantity which you wish to plot

stats

 

[Laser310]

It's crazy to think that NYYC American Magic has, reportedly spent upwards US $150M.., and 3 years of peoples lives, for what probably amounts to a several of hours of racing. And if you don't count the "world series", which wasn't AC racing, it's even worse.

TNZ will have a similar ratio I guess, and INEOS/LR will have a bit better ratios.., but overall it's not a great return on the investment.

Does this even make sense?

The answer I suppose is that the AC never makes sense, but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

 

[Mudisox]

Owning a boat ------ .

 

[Laser310]

Owning a boat ------ .

and here I was, thinking I was a sensible person...

 

[flaming]

It's crazy to think that NYYC American Magic has, reportedly spent upwards US $150M.., and 3 years of peoples lives, for what probably amounts to a several of hours of racing. And if you don't count the "world series", which wasn't AC racing, it's even worse.

TNZ will have a similar ratio I guess, and INEOS/LR will have a bit better ratios.., but overall it's not a great return on the investment.

Does this even make sense?

The answer I suppose is that the AC never makes sense, but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

They were supposed to have had 3 other events last year, but Covid put paid to them. But yeah, AC racing has never made any sense. The most sense was made about 2000-2007 when the budget required was in the ball park of corporate sponsorship and you could get into the game in a second hand boat, even if you weren't going to be competitive.
But the last 4 cycles, 5 if you include the DOG match, have all been sailed in different boats, so there has been no opportunity for any teams to pick up old boats and get involved.

 

[Tomahawk]

All in , I feel sad for the yanks..
But I do wonder what..... happened to the person who forgot to release the runner?
It was a beginners mistake which any boat with runners will have made at some point.

 

[flaming]

All in , I feel sad for the yanks..
But I do wonder what..... happened to the person who forgot to release the runner?
It was a beginners mistake which any boat with runners will have made at some point.

That wasn't the issue.

The issue was that they were not going fast enough before they tried to bear away, so the AWA shot aft when the gust hit. The runner catching happens well after this, and was reported to be at the limit of its travel anyway. They never expected to need it loser than that, and shouldn't have done, other than they went for the very hardest move and were too tentative about it.

 

[Bobc]

That wasn't the issue.

The issue was that they were not going fast enough before they tried to bear away, so the AWA shot aft when the gust hit. The runner catching happens well after this, and was reported to be at the limit of its travel anyway. They never expected to need it loser than that, and shouldn't have done, other than they went for the very hardest move and were too tentative about it.

Yup. If the fault lies with anyone, it lies with Barker for not listening to Goodie (the tactician).

 

[Tomahawk]

You know that quip at NYYC about what to put into the cabinet if ever they lost the "old jug"..

Would an effigy suffice? Or should it be Barkers head?

 

[Laser310]

All in , I feel sad for the yanks..
But I do wonder what..... happened to the person who forgot to release the runner?
It was a beginners mistake which any boat with runners will have made at some point.

It's hydraulic, and has limited throw - not a matter of taking a line off a winch.

apparently it was released - whether it went to the limit of the throw is not clear, but TH indicated it did.

 

[flaming]

Yup. If the fault lies with anyone, it lies with Barker for not listening to Goodie (the tactician).

Goodie was not the tactician. He was the main trimmer. Terry Hutchinson was the tactician.

Goodie gave his opinion, was over ruled by the brains trust of DB and TH, and the rest is history. In my humble opinion that crash, or something similar, was baked into the program at the time that they decided to have TH, a 52 year old man with no significant foiling or apparent wind sailing pedigree, both call tactics and grind.

 

[davidej]

they decided to have TH, a 52 year old man with no significant foiling or apparent wind sailing pedigree, both call tactics and grind.

Hang on old boy!

52 years old - mere strip of a lad.

 

[Laser310]

Goodie was not the tactician. He was the main trimmer. Terry Hutchinson was the tactician.

Goodie gave his opinion, was over ruled by the brains trust of DB and TH, and the rest is history. In my humble opinion that crash, or something similar, was baked into the program at the time that they decided to have TH, a 52 year old man with no significant foiling or apparent wind sailing pedigree, both call tactics and grind.

well, he would have had quite a few hours of foiling in this boat.., granted that it is not the same as starting out in the Moth, and making it to a few World Championships...

but, he isn't a novice

I think it is mostly the other issue you raise - grinding and not looking around

when the call was made, the situation had changed a lot from just 30 seconds earlier.

Earlier, the pressure was all on the left side, and even though, with the wind direction having shifted left, the right hand mark was actually further down wind and was thus the geometrically favoured mark, it still made sense to go to the left mark to stay in the pressure and not risk coming off the foils.

But, by the time they were making the left gate/right gate call, it really looked as if there was pressure across the course all the way to the right gate - it looked as if the situation had changed, but TH was unaware...

by the time they made the call, the rsik of coming off the foils at the right gate was substantially diminished, and for sure it looked like there was enough wind on the right to go around the mark, gybe, and get back to the left side

I think it's unlikely TH didn't appreciate that they were doing a risky maneuver - and I am not sure that huge gust was visible on the water when they made the final call - just that he didn't realize that an option that had previously looked unacceptable, might have become acceptable