Industry NB:- We want a better anchor alarm not a better anchor!

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Sleeping at anchor is a matter of having confidence in your anchor, having adequate chain out and having set the anchor initially. As I said if it will take (in our case) 44hp in reverse and we haven't dragged during the day then why would I wake up worrying that it will drag at night?

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think that you are writing as a person who anchors for months of the year in strange anchorages? Here is a post from another forum. I won't identify the poster as that would be bad manners.

[ QUOTE ]
I too was interested in the Spade and Rocna, but I couldn't wait months to get one so I ordered a Bulwagga based on a friend's recommendation. I've now used it for about 10 months of near continuous anchoring from New England to Panama. It bites in nearly instantly, holds tenaciously, doesn't seem concerned with swinging, and is reasonably easy to retrieve. It held me at Block Island during a frontal passage when several boats dragged away after the wind shift, and that is a weedy bottom where I have had trouble with a CQR. It also held well in Cuttyhunk in a very weedy spot. It held us fine in Bocas del Toro in a hard bottom where several other boats with CQRs dragged. We had one instance where the anchor came up wrapped in chain. I think one fluke must not have dug in on a hard bottom, and the reversing current wrapped the chain under the fluke. That could be a danger in very hard bottoms. Another nuisance is the potential of pinching a finger with the movable shaft. Overall, we are extremely pleased and have relegated our CQR to a back up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point I am making is that the experience of long-term anchorers shows that dragging is common. People do what they can to buy the best ground tackle and deploy it properly but nevertheless dragging is a major issue. Detection of dragging is what this thread is about. If you should ever decide to spend a great deal of time at anchor in distant parts I advise you to wise-up to that fact first! Absolutely no offence intended /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[merseamercy]

[ QUOTE ]
Attached to the anchor is an apparatus that fires a passive transponder into the sea bed. A transmitter/receiver mounted on the anchor interrogates the transponder regularly and stays in contact via sonar with the boat. If the link between the anchor and the transponder fails you raise an alarm. The technology is very cheap - tags from the retail article protection industry. But, should we litter the sea bed with this trash? Or can we make it soluble in sea water after several months? Or can we recover the transponder? Anyway, something like that could work.

[/ QUOTE ]
The transponder can still be attached to the anchor, by a wire or something. So it gets dropped down, and the alarm only sounds once it's a certain distance away. So both would be retrievable.

Joint venture anyone?

 

[Anonymous]

If it's attached by a wire then you don't need the telemetry/range detection duh! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[merseamercy]

Can you explain why? I am in a dumb mood and can't be bothered thinking. The rants of _hylas_ have given me a headache.

You can't rely on a measure of shock because the anchor might drag slowly. How does the wire give you the range detection you need?

 

[Anonymous]

Hylas is an experienced and highly respected anchor designer, worldwide. And you are?

 

[duncan]

OMG I am agreeing with mersea in an anchor related thread............

Lemain - of course you do. The wire is simply a safety wire that whilst not holding the transponded next to the anchor will, after the anchor has moved a distance and the electronics have registered the move, then recover the transponder. Think safety lanayard rather than wire.

obvious danger is that the a tangle results in anchor and transponder bouncing merrily across the bottom together and no alarm!

personally I set my anchor alarm over the anchor after I have set it and motored back up to it's position before dropping back on it. Set the circle based on the actual length out and sleep soundly (when in secluded anchorage) or not when others draggin is a bigger issue than me! dGPS helps.

Overall in crowder anchorages you need not only an anchor alarm for your boat, but good anchors and techinique on all the others, in order to realy sleep soundly. Failing that a bottle or two ................

Happy hooking... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Anonymous]

/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

I disagree with your analysis of that post. All it says is that in a weedy anchorage his anchor held when several CQRs dragged. This is no surprise because the CQR has difficulty penetrating weed.

The great thing about the CQR is it's consistency. While it may not have the highest holding power in the tests, in practise once it has dug in it does not drag.

Robin is right. When you know your boat and gear you gain confidence in anchoring and knowing when you need to maintain an anchor watch. It sounds to me that you have not yet aquired this confidence.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Sleeping at anchor is a matter of having confidence in your anchor, having adequate chain out and having set the anchor initially. As I said if it will take (in our case) 44hp in reverse and we haven't dragged during the day then why would I wake up worrying that it will drag at night?


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I don't think that you are writing as a person who anchors for months of the year in strange anchorages? .

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in 35 years or so I think I've anchored quite a bit and probably a lot more than you have so far on your trip from the UK to Spain. I maybe haven't stayed at anchor for months at a time in one spot but I certainly have for many days at a time and in bad conditions but I fail to see the relevance of that anyway. If the anchor is in and holding and stays thus why do I need to stay there for months to prove a point? BTW I see you are in a marina at present?

[ QUOTE ]
The point I am making is that the experience of long-term anchorers shows that dragging is common. People do what they can to buy the best ground tackle and deploy it properly but nevertheless dragging is a major issue. Detection of dragging is what this thread is about. If you should ever decide to spend a great deal of time at anchor in distant parts I advise you to wise-up to that fact first! Absolutely no offence intended

[/ QUOTE ]

The post is on an open forum so open to all to input comments be they draggers, long term draggers or confident anchorers. I think it is perfectly valid to consider the overall situation, just solve the dragging problem and then there is no need for a drag detection gizmo.

Personally if I needed a drag detector device in order to sleep at night in my chosen location then I would MOVE to another location where I didn't and do it now whilst conditions allowed me to. A detector doesn't PREVENT dragging, it just highlights the fact that you ARE dragging and the more times an alarm went off the more the fear of anchoring is enhanced and lord help anyone with a nervous partner/crew because dreams of a safe brick box ashore would soon start.

I go back to what I have said many times already. If I have chosen a safe location (protected from expected winds and sea and as far as possible out of strong tide flows) and if I have set my anchor properly on arrival and can load it with 44hp full reverse then it will need something exceptional to make that drag later. If the circumstances (forecast or actual) change then that is time to move to a better spot, ie move right now, not wait until Pavlov's little buzzer tells me to!

Priority #1 IMO is to chose a suitable location, have a well trusted anchor, maybe a selection of types to suit different bottom types, plenty of chain, a proper snubber system to prevent jerk loads and a windlass or raising system that doesn't discourage doing it again if 1st try was a bit iffy. I can well understand the quest for a better all-round anchor that works in any bottom if there really is one out there but an alarm to cure the symptom rather than the ailment doesn't trip my anchor. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Saying that lots of people drag is very true. I have seen lots of people do it when we have had no problem at all. But then I have also seen WHY many of them dragged like undersized or poorly designed cheap anchors, inadequate scope maybe dropped in a heap on top of the anchor, not properly dug in, no snubber and so on.

Many of these who drag are inexperienced, very often charterers or even those who just bought a 48 footer out of Granny's will and set off to cross the wide blue yonder. I'm not saying that applies in your case, it is just a general observation. There will also be lots who have sailed and cruised for years but rarely anchored in anger until their 'big cruise', so 'experienced' in one respect but 'novices' in another. We have a friend, now out of boating who sailed for years but who never got the hang of anchoring despite having good tackle, on several occasions I even swam across and went on board to get his anchor to set otherwise he was headed marina bound!

I wonder how many times someone like Hylas has dragged? Are you listening Alain??

 

[Anonymous]

Well, Robin, that's a pretty cocky post /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Let's hope you don't have to learn the hard way but if you do any serious anchoring with your CQR genuine or not, you are in for a nasty surprise one of these days. However, I note that you are very picky about your anchorage. I could easily choose anchorages that have excellent holding and not bother with the medium and poor holding ones but that wouldn't allow me to cruise in the accepted sense of the word. Cruisers need to deal with what they have been dealt and that often means multiple anchors.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, Robin, that's a pretty cocky post Let's hope you don't have to learn the hard way but if you do any serious anchoring with your CQR genuine or not, you are in for a nasty surprise one of these days. However, I note that you are very picky about your anchorage. I could easily choose anchorages that have excellent holding and not bother with the medium and poor holding ones but that wouldn't allow me to cruise in the accepted sense of the word. Cruisers need to deal with what they have been dealt and that often means multiple anchors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not cocky Lemain but truthful.

As a matter of fact, we use primarily a DELTA with a (genuine) CQR and a Fortress as well on board.

If the holding is medium to poor then surely that would be discovered when the anchor is initially set, or not set maybe in this case. As I said IF it will hold when dug in with 44hp in reverse (whatever the bottom) then I'm confident that unless the conditions significantly change from expected it will stay there - even in the dark. If it DOESN'T hold initially then I'll either try and try until I find a spot it will hold in OR will move to another area, anything else would in my mind be foolish however much I wanted to visit that spot. How could you 'visit' anyway with a dodgy connection to the bottom? Would an Alarm Gizmo need to be able to call you on the mobilephone whilst you are ashore so you can rush back and chase after your rapidly dragging boat?

We must agree to differ /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif But I would still like to hear from Hylas how often HE has dragged as to whether this is a frequent and expected occurrence or merely a perceived one.

 

[Anonymous]

This is an anchor alarm thread, not a anchoring thread .If you are not interested in anchor alarms but want to talk about anchors and anchoring techniques, please discuss those on the two threads that are presently running on that subject and leave this thread clear for anyone who is interested in talking about alarms.

 

[dedwards]

Couldnt you have a second mini-anchor with a load meter and a slightly longer rode?
If you real anchor slips, the load will transfer to the other one and you could easily detect the change.

 

[Robin]

Forgive me Lemain \'cos I have sinned...

[ QUOTE ]
This is an anchor alarm thread, not a anchoring thread .If you are not interested in anchor alarms but want to talk about anchors and anchoring techniques, please discuss those on the two threads that are presently running on that subject and leave this thread clear for anyone who is interested in talking about alarms.

[/ QUOTE ]


....I dared to reply to YOUR post on YOUR forum.

I will leave you to carry on talking about alarms. Indeed I find you are one of the most ALARMED persons around as it seems every aspect of cruising from anchoring to anchor lights to medical insurance to losing your NHS entitlements worries you intensely.

Now where do they keep the 'ignore this prat' button?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Forgive me Lemain \'cos I have sinned...

Aha! It was something personal and nothing about anchors. I'm glad to have got to the bottom of that.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, I've been giving quite a bit of thought to that concept over the last few days. The mini-anchor could be one of the 'spiney' anchors the fishermen are so fond of in the western Med and there could be a simple stress detector in the linking chain that triggers a transmitter when the load exceeds a preset quantity. I have been toying with an ultrasonic transducer that sends a coded signal every (say) second and a different signal (say) five times a second when alarmed.

The electronics looks very easy though power supply requirements over several weeks could be an issue. We would need to target 21 days + leaving a sensible design margin for ageing batteries and components at the high end of their supply drain spec. The biggest hurdle with ultrasound is the marine life issue - regardless of regs none of us would want to do anything to distress marine life. Depth sounders seem OK but we would need to do a bit of research. The nice thing about ultrasound is that you can position the receiver more or less anywhere.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Setting an anchor properly is a very basic aspect of good seamanship. Some folk are mariners, some are mere boat drivers. Set properly you can get a good nights sleep even in the dark. A GPS alarm is just a useful bonus that aids sleep.

 

[Sans Bateau]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've been giving quite a bit of thought to that concept over the last few days. The mini-anchor could be one of the 'spiney' anchors the fishermen are so fond of in the western Med and there could be a simple stress detector in the linking chain that triggers a transmitter when the load exceeds a preset quantity. I have been toying with an ultrasonic transducer that sends a coded signal every (say) second and a different signal (say) five times a second when alarmed.

The electronics looks very easy though power supply requirements over several weeks could be an issue. We would need to target 21 days + leaving a sensible design margin for ageing batteries and components at the high end of their supply drain spec. The biggest hurdle with ultrasound is the marine life issue - regardless of regs none of us would want to do anything to distress marine life. Depth sounders seem OK but we would need to do a bit of research. The nice thing about ultrasound is that you can position the receiver more or less anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

That'll sure to work! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Anonymous]

Right, you wanted to know what Hylas thinks........

Quote from Spade website

[ QUOTE ]
If you, like me, enjoy anchoring in those small, remote coves, you are sure to have dragged your anchor at some time : no matter what anchor you use, poor holding or strong winds will have made sure of that.

I've certainly had my share of this kind of drama, and I have many memories of long nights of darkness and fear, checking my anchors and my position. And praying! .... Will I drag? Or am I safe enough to go to bed?

But such problems, rather than putting me off sailing, made me think seriously about anchors. I began my study of how anchors work - and of why they sometimes fail to work. Are all anchors equal, dragging with the same load on the same bottom? Will they drag with a constant resistance ? And if they do let go, will they dig in again? In a word, how do anchors behave?

I also studied my fellow sailors, each with his own relationship to his chosen, favourite anchor. How well did they understand their anchors? Were they really wise old "sea dogs", or were they simply acting with blind faith, blind also to the faults of their partner in anchoring? I soon learned that surprisingly few sailors ever really understand what is going on, on the sea floor under their boats.

I investigated the logic of anchor design, and began the extensive series of tests and experiments that led me to create the entirely new SPADE anchor. It is, I am totally confident, the best anchor that has ever existed.

This is the anchor that we can now offer you !

Alain POIRAUD - SPADE chairman

[/ QUOTE ]

Alain, hope you don't mind? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[craigsmith]

[ QUOTE ]
We must agree to differ /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif But I would still like to hear from Hylas how often HE has dragged as to whether this is a frequent and expected occurrence or merely a perceived one.

[/ QUOTE ]It is the case, and I am sure also with Alain, that the new anchors have been developed for a reason. Peter's Rocna was never called a Rocna to start with, it was just a personal development because he wanted a new anchor and there didn't exist one that was good enough. It was only after quite a few years of use and requests from other people wanting to know "where to get one" that he decided to go commercial.

In Peter's case he had extensive experience with genuine CQR and Bruce on his last boat, and had given up on them. A Delta was selected as being the then-best option for his new boat (back in the early 90s), and it proved to be so, but again it presented a few bad experiences, particularly in soft mud where it just didn't have the fluke area to hold, and wouldn't always set in grass or weed.

So, behind any anchor inventor, there will likely be a history of dragging! It (dragging) can certainly be considered "a frequent and expected occurence", the risk of which can only be mitigated with the right gear and usage - and managed perhaps with an alarm.