Incompetant Seamen

[seaesta]

No I am not talking about the England goalie!
Stand by for a lot of heavy handed legislation that will tie us ameteur sailors in knots because many of the so called professionals are either incompetant or cannot be arsed to look where they are going.
Recent incidents in the English channel have seen large ships colliding , sinking and then repeatedly driving into a well marked and highly publicised wreck on "the edge" of the shipping lanes.
Add to this this the oil tankers that are so weak they fall apart and a government that handles the affair so badly that we are set for at least 4 years of oil pollution arising from a wreck thousands on feet deep but leaking 100 + tons of heavy oil a day - and which is now polluting beaches from Portugal to Biarritz.
The public are going to snap, the politicians will react, and the resulting legistlation may well bugger us yachties completely.
Phew - glad to get that off my chest - but what do you think should be said and done?

 

[IanPoole2]

This is a difficult problem.
If, as seems to be the case, there are several vessels with incompetent crews and masters steaming up and down the channel (or other British waters), banging into well marked wrecks which are patrolled by 2 or 3 coastguard or Naval vessels and tugs, then further legislation is not only going to be introduced, but is obviously desirable.
After all, I assume these professional seaman (Masters) must already be qualified, not through voluntary schemes, but by legislation.
If they are incompetent or negligent (which it sounds like they are), they could just as easily mow down a yacht (behaving correctly) as to collide with a sunken car carrier.

The difficulty is going to be how far to further legislate.
They could just insist that pilots are needed through these overcrowded waters, legislate for an increased level of watchkeeping, checking in and out of the TSS via VHF or
the answer none of us wants to hear - make sure everyone (including leisure sailors and fishermen) meets a minimum required level of competence.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Compulsory Pilots

If it is made compulsory to have a pilot on board for all ships through the straights - that means some 300 extra jobs! Where on earth are they goingto get that number of experianced and qualified pilots - emphasis on experianced ????

 

[IanPoole2]

Re: Compulsory Pilots

Thats the nub - 300 pilots as well as being expensive, would take time to train and to gather the experience required.

Safety does not come cheap. It is perhaps the costs of introducing legislation that may not generate a revenue stream to cover it's costs that would deter the treasury. Who would after all have the final say.

You can bet that if they did try to legislate, what would be is the most cost effective solution, probably given the "spin" as the most modern and best, would be the one chosen, especially if a new form of taxation (sorry revenue generation) was a happy (from the treasuries perspective) by product.

Also - do n't forget the European view, Prestige, Tricolor, Vicky all over the other side of the water. "Europe" is (usually) a lot keener to legislate than the UK, irrespective of costs. Look at the Fridge mountain etc

 

[Buck]

The problem is that with our governments mentality they will target the wrong people, take the gun debacle for example, someone went mad with firearms including an illegally held fully automatic weapon, government response? Ban self loading shot guns! Later someone goes mad with a .22 rifle, government response? Ban all firearms except .22 rifles.
So the obvious answer to large cargo vessels being crewed incompetantly is easy. Ban leisure boating.
Am I being cynical?

Buck

Relax, life is just a game.

 

[Chris_Stannard]

Merchant Shipping Standards

One of the problems is that every one, including you and me, wants everything cheap. As a result the shipping companies run ships on when they are really life expired and they do this with the cheapest possible crews, so you may have a Russian or Polish master with an Indonesian crewwho cannot talk to one another.

My view is that the UK should ban all ships sailing under flags of convenience from its waters, and that officers should be tested on a regular basis by a Un body.

Having said that last summer I was on starboard and had to take emergency action to avoid another boat onboat. His response to my hail, "you should get out of the ******* way, I am bigger than you" (by about 6 feet!). When that degree of incompetence is shown by some "Yachtsmen" I consider some legislation regarding standards to be highly desireable

Chris Stannard

 

[byron]

Re: Merchant Shipping Standards

My view is that the UK should ban all ships sailing under flags of convenience from its waters, .

Do that an (A) You contravene international law (B) Invite reciprocal action from other countries. (C) Cause freight rates to soar because ship owners will retaliate by striking the UK from their itinaries. (D) Entirely disrupt all cross channel ferry services (many of these are FoC vessels.)
I can go on but I would bore you.
Moving on to Officer Certification these are already very stringent indeed some 3rd world countries are as strict as the UK.

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[IanPoole2]

I would n't describe you (from your posting) as cynical, but you do seem to be implying that the government is either -

Incompetent
or
You are a conspiratorist - they are conspiring to force legislation on us leisure sailors to either force us off the water or to raise extra tax revenue from us
(probably to pay MP's pensions - I too can see conspiracy)

Actually I would assume it's a mixture of both.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Merchant Shipping Standards

Yes - you are dead right - we have got used to cheapness, where resourses are not limited (UK marina charges).

If we banned all older single skinned tankers - you would probably have to start walking, as there are insufficient double skinned to carry our requirements. The Maritime organisations also argue that double skinned are not necessarily safer, as each skin is thinner and will suffer earlier from corrosion, thus becoming weaker at an earlier age.

 

[byron]

Re: Compulsory Pilots

300 Pilots? More like 3,000 would be needed plus deep water service launches and crews to man them 24 hours a day plus land based facilities for engineering and administration. All for what? To show the Master of a vessel the way from A to B ?
What is more realistic would be a "running into danger" warning system such as being buzzed by a Helicopter or light aircraft.
I know those water intimately and I am always amazed that so many vessels traverse it every day safely and without ado.




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[spannerman]

What is happening on the High Seas, is it possible to assemble a competant crew, one which can look out of the window and see and avoid other shipping, interpret a radar screen in bad weather, and read a depth sounder. It would appear its getting more difficult of late, I live in Norway a country with a long maritime tradition, yet nearly every wek a coaster runs aground somewhere along the coast usually in broad daylight! The most embarrassing one ending up with her bows up on a rock just 2o metres from a light house in the middle of the day. The problem we have over here is drinking on duty, and just the other week a crew of a large passenger ferry were arrested when they docked and found to be under the influence, the reason they were caught, a local housewife saw the ferry zig zag-ing up the fjord. I am sure this is a problem in other countries too, and not helped by having multinational crew with perhaps communication difficulties. Can't the merchant shipping take a leaf from the airlines book, 12 hours from bottle to throttle, and loss of certificates for the crew, and fines for the owners for poor seamanship and poorly maintained ships.
Even the new super cruise ship recently launched up in Trondheim went aground on her first trip out and had to go back in dry dock for repairs, was no one looking at the depth sounder!

Steve

 

[Bergman]

Don't pretend to know the solution, but reading the MARS website database of reports there is a considerable amount of incompetance around.

Does anything unpleasant happen to the Masters of ships that run into wrecks or other such things?

If you do it in a car license lost, fines etc

 

[Guest]

Re: Compulsory Pilots

Byron is correct. Most shipping traverses the waters with safety. However those who work at Lloyds know that ships sink or run ashore or are abandoned almost every day of the year somewhere in the world. The advent of modern aids has reduced the toll, which a number of years ago was huge.
The rcent publicity is because the wreck in question is near UK waters. As far as I know there has been no loss of life and the two ships that have hit it (and there will surely be more) have got off without serious mishap.

 

[Buck]

Yes and yes your probably right on all counts.

Buck

Relax, life is just a game.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Re: Merchant Shipping Standards

I sail in the Aegean Most of the Ships masters here don`t give a toss about rights of way regarding a yacht .I would not entertaining standing on in any circumstance .
mind you I feel the same about Sunsail boats cheers bob t

ps i hope that was the first sunsail hit this year

boss1

 

[byron]

Does anything unpleasant happen to the Masters of ships that run into wrecks or other such things?

Board of Enquiry usually under the country of Flag. Guilt is then apportioned by degree and a Master's Ticker can be
suspended or even revoked.

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[Guest]

Comes down to \'EASY TARGETS\'

Govt's always fall onto easy targets to get the eyes of the world away from the cock-ups !

When you have a govt going to rats--t ..... they point at another point on the globe and say look at that blah blah blah.

Well it works with shipping as well .... I left the bridge of ships after 17 yrs - why ..... fed up with the increase of administration, bullshit and politics that was clouding the real game of seamanship. There was no longer any enjoyment in navigating the ship - it was just a relief to get through the drudgery that endless authorities had piled onto us.
I agree that legisaltion and rules etc. are necessary to make things more regulated and safer ..... but thats the catch SAFER ....

so endeth my pennyworth !!


Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

Forgot to add .....

For a few years of my 'final' time at sea .... I actually was expected by the shipping companies to 'train / teach/ instruct' the replacement crews. WE were TOO expensive, WE were too difficult to work with, WE wanted proper working equipment etc.

So QED matey ..... I was slowly looking at less and less euro officers around me, and more other nationalities. Believe me there are many nationalities etc. that have very fine seaman- Europe has no monopoly on that - in fact I would say I have seen more cases of drunk officers on Brit ships I sailed on than Flag of Convenience .....

but I was basically training my way out of a job !!!!

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

Re: Compulsory Pilots

Plenty of ex Liverpool etc. pilots around !!!!

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

The TANKER .....

The last incident involved a TANKER ....... whether the shipwas badly damaged or not ..... the story that hit the headlines was TANKER with HIGHLY FLAMMBLE kerosine .....

The real story was hidden and sensationalism was expounded.... building on recent Spanish incident etc.

The sheer number of vessels that traverse the Channel is unbelievable and the law of averages states that many more incidents should occur .... we are lucky that more do not. Most vessels are doing their best in times of minimum manning, reduction of control services etc. etc. The real culprits are not so much the Masters and Officers on the ships .... but the shipowners cutting costs to protect diminishing margins .......

Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !