Inadequate Design of Furling Systems

[garvellachs]

Safety is not about blame either of the design or the installation but about how to improve things and build in resiliance. Having something over and above the usual single bit of quite thin rope to prevent an unplanned unravelling of the genoa has to be a good thing. I think the OP is right.

So my guess is that the OP (not skipper he says) was reaching across the F7/8 westerlies heading south in open sea; fairly safe with everything reefed to the full. Suddenly the reefing line gives way and a large jib/genoa unravels unbalancing everything and driving the bow round before the wind. A jibe follows and breaks the mainsheet (its windy out there), another violent jibe as control is lost. Hopefully someone is getting the engine on and establishing some sense of order, head to wind; hopefully it's not dark too. Hopefully there aren't lengths of mainsheet nor furling line in the water ready to foul the prop.

A scary scenario which would test any of us. I can understand why the OP is questioning the way the furling works. That 8mm furling line could dis-mast the boat in those circumstances. Our old Harken had corresponding holes in the drum and the drum casing that could admit a short line or a drop nose pin to lock the furler - crude but reassuring. Our new Selden (not as good in my opinion) doesn't offer anything the same, but a short line tied from the tack shackle to the pulpit provides a bit of security. I think the manufacturers should think about this and offer something similar.

Of course once the furler is locked off, someone may need to go forward to unlock it in less-than-ideal conditions; but choosing your moment to brave the foredeck with a tether is altogether preferable to a sudden and uncontrollable deployment in a gale of a sail that might be almost the size of a full mainsail on a mast-head boat!

 

[dom]

I think that the answer is in the title of this thread. The system is for "FURLING" and not 'REEFING". I know that many seem to consider the two terms as being interchangeable but they are not. If the wind is likely to pipe up to the level where the large Genoa becomes too much, I furl the sail, rig up the second forestay (with a Highfield lever) and hank on the storm jib.

Agree with your distinction - e.g. I have a #4 blade on a ‘furler’. But 99.9% of manufacturer fitted bow rollers on cruising vessels are bona fide reefing systems

 

[jant]

The Wykeham Martin roller furling gear, which incidentally you can still buy, used steel ball bearings, and, by virtue of its position commonly being on a bowsprit, led a harder life than today's roller reefing systems, but I can't think of a single case of the bearings rusting, so I think that it should not be too hard to build in a ratchet that is effectively waterproofed.

the Sailspar system is also very reliable, Sailspar say the only maintenance is a sloosh with fresh water now and then. I have one and never had an issue with it even when reffing in 30+ kt winds.

 

[zoidberg]

Some years ago had a similar concern on a Rival 34, of a 'furling/reefing' genoa relying on a 'furling-reefing' control line not chafing through, during heavy weather.

I was able to sort that by taking a short 4mm s/s wire strop, with Talurit spliced eyes and a small snaplink at each end. One end was secured around a pulpit strut; the other was clipped in to a hole in the furling drum.

That tough wire strop took all the rotation load - and the slamming - off the furling line and the jammer it passed through at the cockpit. Job done - cheaply.

 

[Kukri]

So my guess is that the OP (not skipper he says) was reaching across the F7/8 westerlies heading south in open sea; fairly safe with everything reefed to the full. Suddenly the reefing line gives way and a large jib/genoa unravels unbalancing everything and driving the bow round before the wind. A jibe follows and breaks the mainsheet (its windy out there), another violent jibe as control is lost. Hopefully someone is getting the engine on and establishing some sense of order, head to wind; hopefully it's not dark too. Hopefully there aren't lengths of mainsheet nor furling line in the water ready to foul the prop.

A scary scenario which would test any of us. I can understand why the OP is questioning the way the furling works. That 8mm furling line could dis-mast the boat in those circumstances. Our old Harken had corresponding holes in the drum and the drum casing that could admit a short line or a drop nose pin to lock the furler - crude but reassuring. Our new Selden (not as good in my opinion) doesn't offer anything the same, but a short line tied from the tack shackle to the pulpit provides a bit of security. I think the manufacturers should think about this and offer something similar.

Of course once the furler is locked off, someone may need to go forward to unlock it in less-than-ideal conditions; but choosing your moment to brave the foredeck with a tether is altogether preferable to a sudden and uncontrollable deployment in a gale of a sail that might be almost the size of a full mainsail on a mast-head boat!

Thank you very much indeed. I was havering between quotes from Selden and the even more expensive Harken. You just made up my mind for me.

I don't mind a tethered expedition to the sharp end with a drop nose pin; compared to dropping, dousing and tying down one headsail and getting another one set, it is nothing.

Thanks again.

And I still think that the system ought to fail safe.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

the Sailspar system is also very reliable, Sailspar say the only maintenance is a sloosh with fresh water now and then. I have one and never had an issue with it even when reffing in 30+ kt winds.

I've just bought and fitted one as well.

I really like the design, built like a tank and it's got chunky rope, should be very easy to see any damage/chafing.

 

[lw395]

....

And I still think that the system ought to fail safe.

The problem is a lack of simple, credible solutions which would fail safe without havng grossly worse overall reliability.

If you choose not to sail with simple furler/reefing systems, that's your privilege. But realistically, they are what they are and you need to add the safety by checking for wear and maybe locking the swivel to the bow roller or whatever in very strong weather.
Or not use them in adverse conditions.
Or have adequate forecast and reduced sail suitable for the likely conditions.

 

[geem]

Thank you very much indeed. I was havering between quotes from Selden and the even more expensive Harken. You just made up my mind for me.

I don't mind a tehered expedition to the sharp end with a drop nose pin; compared to dropping, dousing and tying down one headsail and getting another one set, it is nothing.

Thanks again.

And I still think that the system ought to fail safe.

 

[geem]

No experience with Harken but the we have Selena and Profurl furler. The Selden is far superior to the Profurl but twice the price. The Selden bearing design is far superior to the Profurl. They don't try to seal the bearings in. They use 316 s/s bearings with grease. Periodically they will need rinsing with fresh water. Ball bearings are £20 a pack off internet. By comparison our similar aged Profurl is no longer supported by them so we can't get new steel bearings and seals. Bearings sound like a concrete mixer so we now need to consider replacement of the whole unit. The advise we are getting from those that know is that if water has got in to the seals it tends to corrode out the slots for the circlips so rebuild is not always possible. I don't know how the Harken is built but IMHO the Selden is a great bit of kit.
Back to the thread, twin furler with a stay sail on the inner and large genoa on outer works for us. 700 sq ft for light winds and 285sq ft for when it pipes up. 7 rolls in staysail with padded luff and we have a nice set up for 30+ knots with either third reef in main or no main but mizzen depending on whether we are going up wind or across the wind. No risk to of chafe on large genoa as it's nicely furled. The loads on the staysail are tiny by comparison as it is a fraction of the size/windage.

 

[dom]

If fail-safe is required - a perfectly respectable requirement - there is actually quite a lot of kit already on the market which do away with furling lines through using elecrical and hydraulic systems: e.g. Harken and Reckmann.

The downside is cost, weight, and complexity, a problem for KISS sailors, who by and large seem happy with what they’ve got. Horses for courses?

 

[lpdsn]

I think that the answer is in the title of this thread. The system is for "FURLING" and not 'REEFING". I know that many seem to consider the two terms as being interchangeable but they are not. If the wind is likely to pipe up to the level where the large Genoa becomes too much, I furl the sail, rig up the second forestay (with a Highfield lever) and hank on the storm jib.

A very good point. My take on it is that furling gear doesn't stop you doing a headsail change. A philosophy I learnt from a skipper when sailing in Sweden and have found useful ever since.

For example last weekend I was expecting more wind on the way back than I would have on the way out, so on the Saturday we put the no. 2 up (it's about a 70% jib) and furled it away before going to the pub so it was ready when we set off on the return leg on the Sunday morning, which was fortunate as Sunday's wind was even more than expected.

Nothing to stop anyone doing a sail change at sea either, although that is always easier with experienced racing crew who can do a headsail change in their sleep.

That said, the OP seems to have suffered from local issues regarding the installation. I'm curious as I'll almost certainly know, or know of, the people involved but I guess it's a public forum.

 

[Neeves]

Thought provoking thread.

It is an issue I had never considered.

We have a screacher (Code 0 in mono speak) on a furler with a normal furling drum. Used off the wind. It is unstayed so cannot be used upwind, the luff is dyneema and is winched up taut. - so it would never be 'reefed'. As we sail over seas and we accelerate and decelerate the sail luffs and the drum part rotates. As the drum part rotates the furling line slackens and tightens. During the time it is slack the line can fall off the drum. If the line falls off the drum it can jamb - and it is impossible to furl the sail - necessitating a trip out on the prodder (bowsprit). Which looses any pleasure when you have left furling too late.

The solution is easy - keep the furling line taut. We simply have a length of bungy such that when the sail is fully deployed the bungy keeps the furling line always taut but the pressure from the sail is alway sufficient to ensure the sail is fully unrolled.

Our genoa and screacher both now have dyneema furling lines, because you can have a thinner furling line that will not fill the drum, but being thin they can fall between drum edge and cage. The screacher furling line falling off the drum may be self inflicted, because we downsized the size of the line - but its something to watch if you swap to dyneema (which is commonly associated with downsizing). Abrasion has never been an issue (over almost 20 years).

If the forecast dictates we remove the 150% genoa off its furler and replace with a self tacking jib. We would seldom reef the genoa. Removing the genoa is easy - packing, more difficult. We have an inner forestay, Highfield lever, (which we keep installed and tensioned offshore) for a hanked on storm jib with its own halyard. If we think we will need the storm jib we hank on well in advance - and lash down until needed (we try to avoid needing it ).

Jonathan

 

[garvellachs]

Thank you very much indeed. I was havering between quotes from Selden and the even more expensive Harken. You just made up my mind for me.

I don't mind a tethered expedition to the sharp end with a drop nose pin; compared to dropping, dousing and tying down one headsail and getting another one set, it is nothing.

Thanks again.

And I still think that the system ought to fail safe.

Our Harken on a 37ft boat was from 1984 but still worked well when scrapped last year - it had to go because Harken finally wouldn't supply the long swaged-on stud needed to replace the forestay again. The ability to furl without a winch in all weathers was wonderful; no greasing, minimal maintenance with torlon ball bearings.

The Selden we've replaced it with requires greasing - OK not so bad - and won't furl unless the halyard tension and forestay tension are right. If the halyard is too tight it won't play. None of that with the Harken.

On the other hand, the Selden foils just clip together and look to be a doddle to take to pieces again to change the forestay. The Harken required pins to be driven out, and Loctite to be heated to loosen the connectors. It was do-able but a bigger job. I don't know about the modern Harkens, and I don't know if those corresponding holes in the drum are still there. Certainly the Selden was cheaper!

 

[Kukri]

Our Harken on a 37ft boat was from 1984 but still worked well when scrapped last year - it had to go because Harken finally wouldn't supply the long swaged-on stud needed to replace the forestay again. The ability to furl without a winch in all weathers was wonderful; no greasing, minimal maintenance with torlon ball bearings.

The Selden we've replaced it with requires greasing - OK not so bad - and won't furl unless the halyard tension and forestay tension are right. If the halyard is too tight it won't play. None of that with the Harken.

On the other hand, the Selden foils just clip together and look to be a doddle to take to pieces again to change the forestay. The Harken required pins to be driven out, and Loctite to be heated to loosen the connectors. It was do-able but a bigger job. I don't know about the modern Harkens, and I don't know if those corresponding holes in the drum are still there. Certainly the Selden was cheaper!

Thank you. Very much indeed. That is a terrific recommendation. The pins to be driven out are now set screws, etc., but the Loctite is the same... I think that and the higher cost are both prices well worth paying.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Understand you don't want to dob anyone in, but I find it very hard to think about this in the abstract given that there are several distinct drum designs out there, each handling chafe problems in its own unique way. Moreover, it would be useful to know exactly what the installation error was; was it a small slip-up, or a grave mistake?

I can't remember the model involved and the boat is now in Bayona and I'm in Dublin, but it was a fairly common one of the large open drum type, the top and bottom being large black horizontal discs, the line was lead through a kind of cage made of (4mm?) stainless wire, forming a large rectangle to the front of the drum. The cage is intended to provide a low-friction guard, to prevent the line bearing directly onto the edge of the said horizontal disc the top of the drum. Unfortunately, the two allen-headed bolts, meant to clamp this in place were not tightened adequately, allowing the arrangement to be forced upward by the tension on the line, thereby allowing the chafe to occur. I can't find an image of it on line, but i closely resembles the one in the link below, except the method of attachment of the s/s cage differs. I should point out that it is NOT a Profurl.
http://www.profurl.com/fiche-A|PROFURL|C480-0201010000000000-theme-UK.html

 

[dom]

-

I can't remember the model involved and the boat is now in Bayona and I'm in Dublin, but it was a fairly common one of the large open drum type, the top and bottom being large black horizontal discs, the line was lead through a kind of cage made of (4mm?) stainless wire, forming a large rectangle to the front of the drum. The cage is intended to provide a low-friction guard, to prevent the line bearing directly onto the edge of the said horizontal disc the top of the drum. Unfortunately, the two allen-headed bolts, meant to clamp this in place were not tightened adequately, allowing the arrangement to be forced upward by the tension on the line, thereby allowing the chafe to occur. I can't find an image of it on line, but i closely resembles the one in the link below, except the method of attachment of the s/s cage differs. I should point out that it is NOT a Profurl.
http://www.profurl.com/fiche-A|PROFURL|C480-0201010000000000-theme-UK.html

Ahh, ok, almost sure it’s a Facnor unit then. Those Allen keys need tightening and Blue Loctiting. As you say, if they come loose the unit can sometimes saw away on the line until it parts. What most installers do to reduce this risk and make the unit smoother is to fit a guide-block on the approach to prevent the cage performing other than a gentle secondary guide. As you say, very bad installation: 0/10.

Almost certainly no way you could have spotted this ex ante, so great job sorting safely. BTW the reason I suspect these ‘furlers’ dont fail safe is the complexity and very high torsional strains - I know from sitting on the bow with a winch handle trying to furl a failed hydraulic unit. Less thrashy than dropping the sail but takes way longer. Nothing is perfect!

 

[conor54]

http://reefrite.co.nz/marine/head-sail-furler/head-sail-furler-details/

This headsail furler has a locking pawl and some other interesting innovations.

 

[elenya]

I believe Reef Rite produce(d) a reefing system with standard rope on drum and a locking pin operated by a long wire back to cockpit. Plenty of these in NZ.
The initial problem appears to be people based rather than the equipment though?

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

A very good point. My take on it is that furling gear doesn't stop you doing a headsail change. A philosophy I learnt from a skipper when sailing in Sweden and have found useful ever since.

For example last weekend I was expecting more wind on the way back than I would have on the way out, so on the Saturday we put the no. 2 up (it's about a 70% jib) and furled it away before going to the pub so it was ready when we set off on the return leg on the Sunday morning, which was fortunate as Sunday's wind was even more than expected.

Nothing to stop anyone doing a sail change at sea either, although that is always easier with experienced racing crew who can do a headsail change in their sleep.

That said, the OP seems to have suffered from local issues regarding the installation. I'm curious as I'll almost certainly know, or know of, the people involved but I guess it's a public forum.

Yes you probably do, it's a small country, Lpdsn. I'll not mention specific names, so as not to affect any discussions between the skipper/owner and whoever fitted the furler, but you may well make deductions, from details mentioned in the thread.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

http://reefrite.co.nz/marine/head-sail-furler/head-sail-furler-details/

This headsail furler has a locking pawl and some other interesting innovations.

That is exactly what I had in mind!