In-mast furling: out of place on a serious offshore yacht?

[Greenheart]

Apologies: this may not be terribly far off the AWB vs MAB battle of philosophies, I'm afraid.

Is the convenience of inmast furling, at odds with a ready-for-anything, rugged, ocean-sailing philosophy?

I realise (or hope, optimistically) that it's more likely just to be sail shape which suffers under reefing (and thus upwind pace), rather than there being an inevitable foul-up inside the mast, which prevents reefing in a gale, and finally dismasts the yacht, somewhere off the Azores...

...but I found a tasty Alan Pape ketch for sale - great looking yacht, very traditional in lines...except, she's got an in-mast main, which I didn't expect on this design.

Give the pic a click, I haven't mastered full-size photos here yet.

View attachment 28024

Granted, she may have been the plaything of somebody who deeply doubts his ability to clamber about on the coachroof in a strong breeze...but are in-mast arrangements still derided as they were initially, twenty years or more back?

 

[nathanlee]

Not impressed with mine thus far. Haven't managed to get the sail out without it snagging as yet. It also adds quite a bit of windage.

In theory it should make coastal cruising easier, but judging by my experience just in the dock, I'd say the single line slab reefing on my corribee was a much more efficient and easy setup.

 

[macd]

"Mainsail: out of place on a serious trade wind yacht?

 

[Uricanejack]

Looks like a beatiful boat to me.
On an ocean passage. the ease of furling and controle from the cockpit would be a big advantage especialy if short handed.
So no I don't think it makes vessel unsuitable. Quite the reverse.
If I were looking i'd prefere a traditional main and mizzen with slab reefing.
So down to your own personal preferance and budget.

 

[Tomahawk]

If inmast reefing was better...... they would use it on the Vendee boats..

Which are single handers..

 

[nathanlee]

If inmast reefing was better...... they would use it on the Vendee boats..

Which are single handers..

You have a high aspect canting bulb keel, do you? Carbon anywhere? I bet your winches don't look like theirs either. Not really a valid argument to compare the the vendee.

That said, if they were good, more boats would have them.

 

[capnsensible]

Have taken 3 yachts east/west and one west east trans atlantic with furling main and one from Canaries to UK. No problem at all and increasingly common on cruising yachts.

Hope this helps,

 

[charles_reed]

If inmast reefing was better...... they would use it on the Vendee boats..

Which are single handers..

Not necessarily, there are major performance losses attendant on any in-mast reefing, mainly the loss of roach and the lack of battens reducing the aerofoil efficiency.

You can use single-line reefing to dramatically reduce the difficulty of slab reefing but this has a definite size limit.

Personally I would not consider in mast reefing but it does have a place for those who are physically challenged and in no hurry.

For those ignorant of other places, in-mast reefing is the most common in the Med and there are certainly more sailboats there than round the UK, so it's not at all uncommon.

 

[Rossynant]

Personally I would prefer simple traditional way, as less things to go wrong. But furling main is quite comfortable idea, so no reason to think it unsuitable.

I was a bit surprized couple years ago visiting a very traditional boat of well known arctic explorers (Mr&Mrs Kurbiel on way to Greenland) - she has furling main. On outside-mast, in fact, but furling.
Can't think of better authority to show this is suitable for "ready-for-anything- rugged-ocean-going" -- this is extreme sailing in extreme
http://www.classicyachtbrokerage.co.uk/index.php?page=vagabond-elle

 

[Tomahawk]

You have a high aspect canting bulb keel, do you? Carbon anywhere? I bet your winches don't look like theirs either. Not really a valid argument to compare the the vendee.

That said, if they were good, more boats would have them.

Actually ...... not canting keel but....

Two carbon fibre dagger boards.... Toma is a catamaran..
Carbon fibre rotating wing mast
Carbon fibre boom
Carbon fibre rudders

Fully battened main with the max roach that can be used without a full flat head..(that because you have to remove the headboard on a full flat head in order to stow it.

The winches are only 53's and 40's but the main is only about 50 Sq m..


She is very easy to sail and goes like the clappers!!!
Sorry if I sould like I am bragging a bit... but I love her so much...

 

[nimbusgb]

If it's good enough for Amel it's good enough for round the world.

Personally I don't like the loss of roach and battens but what you lose in efficiency you gain in convenience.

 

[Rossynant]

Efficiency is lost only on windward beating. How much of it while ocean-going?

 

[nathanlee]

She is very easy to sail and goes like the clappers!!!
Sorry if I sould like I am bragging a bit... but I love her so much...

Haha. Not at all. If one can't brag about their toys, it's all a bit pointless.

I do wonder what I'm doing wrong with mine though. A few replies on here have suggested they're ok, but the furling line gets stuck on mine when unfurling. I suppose if it was going to get stuck in one direction, that is at least the preferred.

 

[david36]

Apologies: this may not be terribly far off the AWB vs MAB battle of philosophies, I'm afraid.

Is the convenience of inmast furling, at odds with a ready-for-anything, rugged, ocean-sailing philosophy?

I realise (or hope, optimistically) that it's more likely just to be sail shape which suffers under reefing (and thus upwind pace), rather than there being an inevitable foul-up inside the mast, which prevents reefing in a gale, and finally dismasts the yacht, somewhere off the Azores...

...but I found a tasty Alan Pape ketch for sale - great looking yacht, very traditional in lines...except, she's got an in-mast main, which I didn't expect on this design.

Give the pic a click, I haven't mastered full-size photos here yet.

View attachment 28024

Granted, she may have been the plaything of somebody who deeply doubts his ability to clamber about on the coachroof in a strong breeze...but are in-mast arrangements still derided as they were initially, twenty years or more back?

If inmast furling is not suitable for serious long distance cruising then nearly every recent, large Hallberg Rassy and Malo are only suitable for gentle coastal pottering! I don't think so.......! Of course, like most kit, you do have to learn how to use it properly.
Fair winds.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Have taken 3 yachts east/west and one west east trans atlantic with furling main and one from Canaries to UK. No problem at all and increasingly common on cruising yachts.

Hope this helps,

There are big differences between cruising, offshore long distance cruising and "ready-for-anything, rugged, ocean-sailing"

Increasingly common? Selden supply more inmast than traditional now.

All the arguments about lack of roach and battens etc generally come from people who do not know what they are talking about.

With the right setup the performance loss is so small as to be unmeasurable and they do not get stuck. They are definitely easier to handle and that's why cruising sailors use them.

The issue for true offshore sailing is different. Yes, lots of people have been offshore with inmast and have had no problems, but in the albeit small likelihood that something does go wrong, having a sail stuck , particularly if it has vertical battens, may well outweigh the convenience factor.

The other issue is one of weight distribution. Inmast carries all the weight aloft, all the time. When reefng in horrendous conditions the lowering of the centre of pressure is a consideration.

On very big boats where everything is so heavy that it has to be mechanically managed I can see that these issues are less important, but for the singlehandler I am of the view that the risk of the thing sticking, no matter how small, is not worth the consequences.

 

[nathanlee]

With the right setup the performance loss is so small as to be unmeasurable and they do not get stuck.

I'm posting some pics of mine when I get a mo, because it does get stuck. Essentially, the furling line is like the kicker, so when I pull sailing out, the angle of approach in to the furling drum below the gooseneck causes the line to ride over itself, which jams the whole show up. It's an old Nic 32 that's been well sailed, so I've no doubt there's a technique to this, but I can't figure it out as yet.

 

[Halcytwo]

Hi
Have in mast on by Bav 38, "There are other topics running if you want to insult Bavaria"
I Have never had a problem in 7 years of ownership.
I find it great as normally sail short handed and rarely even turn into wind to put out the sails these days.
Its all in the technique !!
Nathanlee, I assume you always keep tension on the opposing line ?
If not this is when problems occur.

 

[Kelpie]

I know people who mistrust or dislike roller furling headsails. Like everything else, it's personal preference. If a system is well installed and properly maintained and operated, it seems that it will be fine. But there's little doubt that the more complex something is, the more it is at risk from something going wrong.
Last year I was anchored next to a Moody whose mainsail was wrapped around his mast, as a result of a failed top swivel. He was looking at a 300 mile sail home with no mainsail. I wouldn't want that to happen mid-Atlantic, but obviously some people do think the system is reliable enough.

A while back I read a book by a couple who over-wintered their steel ketch on the Antartic Peninsula. They were big fans of in-mast furling, and claimed that it allowed furling/reefing on any point of sail- which is exactly the opposite of my own experience, so I wonder hat system they were using?

 

[Uricanejack]

As above 30 years ago. Roller furling headsails were often derided by all and sundrey including me. Yet today almost all crusing yachts are equiped with furling heasails. including my own.

 

[TimBennet]

When you listen to 'horrifying' stories about In-Mast furling, you have to realise that some of these units are now well over 30 years old. There were also lots of 'copy cat' systems that promised ease of use, or after market fitting, or cheaper, or even all three. Some systems were never any good and others (like a lot of things on old boats), have been very poorly maintained. But a well built system that's been well maintained is a viable alternative for an offshore boat.

Interestingly on lager yachts, it's now in boom furling that is the norm. There is some trickle down of technology to units for smaller boats and these offer all the advantages of in-mast systems plus you get a fully battened sail with roach and the sail can be completely lowered and secured, even if there are problems with the mechanism. I've now got extensive experience of the Sailtainer system and have been slowly won over by it as the miles have clocked up.