In boom furling systems - retrofit - advice sought.

[Baggywrinkle]

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of in-boom furling systems on 40+ ft yachts?

I'm not a fan of slab reefing or lazyjacks which is a personal preference, but a large number of boats are fitted with them - which would rule them out of my boat search.

Retrofitting a standard furling main means a new mast which is economically unviable - unless I get really lucky and find someone who wants to swap, or who will buy my mast/boom combo to offset the costs.

The other option is to retro-fit an in boom furling system - but I have no direct experience of them.

Any first hand advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dunedin]

Know a few people who have retrofitted carbon furling booms. Combined with very high quality laminate sails they have all been pleased with their choice. BUT it isn’t cheap (aka breathtakingly expensive, deeply into the 5 figures)
Means new boom, new sail and often a track up the mast. Then there are all the other bits that end up getting changed - kicker strut, control systems etc.
I benefitted as I bought a nice second hand North mainsail that was surplus to new requirements.

Out of interest, what is your objection to a fully battened main with stackpack and lazyjacks. Definitely the best performance. And I find very easy to use solo, provided there is an electric halyard winch to assist.
Yes it needs a decent system to zip up the stack pack, and potentially some mast steps to put on the front cover when leave the boat. But I don’t find that an issue.
And as I pointed out to one retrofitter of a carbon furling boom, for the price he paid I could leave the sail uncovered when cruising, and pay somebody to put the sail cover on when leaving the boat, plus replace the mainsail a couple of times for extra UV damage - and still spend less in my remaining cruising lifespan than he did up front!

And suspect only makes l sense in performance cruisers like Arcona, X Yachts etc.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Know a few people who have retrofitted carbon furling booms. Combined with very high quality laminate sails they have all been pleased with their choice. BUT it isn’t cheap (aka breathtakingly expensive, deeply into the 5 figures)
Means new boom, new sail and often a track up the mast. Then there are all the other bits that end up getting changed - kicker strut, control systems etc.
I benefitted as I bought a nice second hand North mainsail that was surplus to new requirements.

Out of interest, what is your objection to a fully battened main with stackpack and lazyjacks. Definitely the best performance. And I find very easy to use solo, provided there is an electric halyard winch to assist.
Yes it needs a decent system to zip up the stack pack, and potentially some mast steps to put on the front cover when leave the boat. But I don’t find that an issue.
And as I pointed out to one retrofitter of a carbon furling boom, for the price he paid I could leave the sail uncovered when cruising, and pay somebody to put the sail cover on when leaving the boat, plus replace the mainsail a couple of times for extra UV damage - and still spend less in my remaining cruising lifespan than he did up front!

And suspect only makes l sense in performance cruisers like Arcona, X Yachts etc.

Disclaimer: I sail with my partner, we are both under 165cm tall and I do all the sail handling while she helms ... she is not really comfortable with noisy flapping sails and thrashing ropes, but otherwise she loves the boat.

My experience is ...

Batten ends getting caught in the lazyjacks - maybe with a better designed sail this may be less of a problem.

Zipping/Unzipping the bag was a real pain on the boats I sailed, it was too high and I couldn't reach the end of the boom because it was over the sprayhood/bimini ... doing the balancing act along the coachroof and leaning out over the sprayhood/bimini to access the zip was precarious - and as the sail should always be ready to deploy, I unzipped in harbour/anchorage, and zipped up again when I was back on anchor or in the marina. This exposed the sail to UV even when we were motoring.

I had trouble reaching the main halyard where it attaches to the sail to make it fast and stop the sail being whipped up the mast in a blow. On my roller furling, I just had to engage or release the ratchet to lock or free the sail.

Reefing - maybe there is a good technique, but I'm bu66ered if I could find it .... reefing and taking reefs out while maintaining course with the wind aft of the beam didn't seem possible, halyard was very difficult to manage along with the reefing lines, and the lazyjacks interfered with the sail battens. Everything pressed hard against the spreaders, bending the battens didn't fill me with confidence either.

Taking reefs in I'd let a bit of halyard out while pulling the reefing lines in their clutches to take up the slack and rinse and repeat until the reef was in. Taking reefs out required releasing the reefing lines from their clutches and winching hard on the main halyard with the reefing lines getting thrown about by the flapping sail. It was exhausting and noisy compared to my roller reefing which I could do alone on all points of sail without excessive flapping.

... so having tried both, and not being too bothered about absolute performance, I prefer roller reefing.

Roller reefing is cr@p if the sail is old and stretched, it catches in the slot and jams, and slab reefing is cr@p unless you have good, frictionless cars (and an electric winch).

 

[dunedin]

Disclaimer: I sail with my partner, we are both under 165cm tall and I do all the sail handling while she helms ... she is not really comfortable with noisy flapping sails and thrashing ropes, but otherwise she loves the boat.

Unlike soft sails, a decent fully battened sail shouldn't do any "noisy flapping" stuff - they just tend to backwind a bit silently. And we don't seem to suffer from any "thrashing ropes" even with 3 reef lines

My experience is ...

Batten ends getting caught in the lazyjacks - maybe with a better designed sail this may be less of a problem.

May depend on the batten end pockets - ours are slightly more prone to this on the port side than the starboard side. But again not an issue for hoisting, even solo. It is a matter of steering towards the wind (on autopilot if solo) and hoisting whilst the sail is blowing between the lazyjacks. With crew I swig up from the mast, with helm tailing through the stopper, solo it is press the electric winch button at the right time. No issue. Incidentally, our lazyjacks are permanently tied off at the upper spreaders, and never adjusted all season.

Zipping/Unzipping the bag was a real pain on the boats I sailed, it was too high and I couldn't reach the end of the boom because it was over the sprayhood/bimini ... doing the balancing act along the coachroof and leaning out over the sprayhood/bimini to access the zip was precarious - and as the sail should always be ready to deploy, I unzipped in harbour/anchorage, and zipped up again when I was back on anchor or in the marina. This exposed the sail to UV even when we were motoring.

We don't have a bimini, so don't have that issue. But thousands of boats never zip up the sailbag except when in harbour, often only when not sailing the next day. We mostly motor with the mainsail hoisted, in hope of better wind soon. But not sure that the amount of extra UV motoring with the sail down but lazybag zip open would be material, Certainly could buy 2-3 new mainsails for less than the cost of conversion to a carbon furling boom.

I had trouble reaching the main halyard where it attaches to the sail to make it fast and stop the sail being whipped up the mast in a blow. On my roller furling, I just had to engage or release the ratchet to lock or free the sail.

We have four folding mast steps at the bottom of the mast - the top two at the same level, ideal to reach the halyard shackle. I also added a short downhaul rope, with velcro "fuse" in case ever snagged, from the headboard to the third slider down. The sail always falls down sufficient that I can reach this downhaul rope, from deck or the first low step. Grap downhaul, pull down rest of sail and tie off - sail then is secured in less than 10 seconds.

Reefing - maybe there is a good technique, but I'm bu66ered if I could find it .... reefing and taking reefs out while maintaining course with the wind aft of the beam didn't seem possible, halyard was very difficult to manage along with the reefing lines, and the lazyjacks interfered with the sail battens. Everything pressed hard against the spreaders, bending the battens didn't fill me with confidence either.

We don't try to reef downwind. Head up to close hauled, sheet in jib to backwind the sail and reefs easily. If sudden squall gets very nasty, dump the lot into the stackpack, then sail under jib only and put the kettle on. If breezy enough that need to reef downwind, we can generally do at least 5-6 knots under jib only anyway.

Taking reefs in I'd let a bit of halyard out while pulling the reefing lines in their clutches to take up the slack and rinse and repeat until the reef was in.

That's how we do it. Fully battened sail doesn't flap, no loose ropes so all nice and controlled. And barely loose any speed whilst reefing.

Taking reefs out required releasing the reefing lines from their clutches and winching hard on the main halyard with the reefing lines getting thrown about by the flapping sail. It was exhausting and noisy compared to my roller reefing which I could do alone on all points of sail without excessive flapping.

Again the fully battened sail should be fairly well controlled. Important to ensure reef lines are free at the cockpit end to avoid excess friction. Then the magic ingredient on a 40 footer and above is the electrc main halyard winch to pull the sail up without stress. BUT, Rule 1, 2 and 3 - NEVER use more than 2 turns on the winch and NEVER use the self tailer. Otherwise if something catches you will break things. Tailing manually with 2 turns if anything is wrong the rope slips telling you to go fox something.

... so having tried both, and not being too bothered about absolute performance, I prefer roller reefing.

Roller reefing is cr@p if the sail is old and stretched, it catches in the slot and jams, and slab reefing is cr@p unless you have good, frictionless cars (and an electric winch).

An electric winch is a lot cheaper than a furling boom setup.

And in 15 years since I started observing this, we have NEVER been overtaken upwind by any boat of any length fitted with an in mast furling mainsail. An Oyster 10 feet longer with very expensive laminates was the closest challenge, and also surprisingly a big modern Southerly (with deep keel when down) with what looked to be North 3DL sails also was pretty fast,

 

[fredrussell]

Aren’t in-mast furling mains the norm on modern AWB’s?

 

[geem]

Disclaimer: I sail with my partner, we are both under 165cm tall and I do all the sail handling while she helms ... she is not really comfortable with noisy flapping sails and thrashing ropes, but otherwise she loves the boat.

My experience is ...

Batten ends getting caught in the lazyjacks - maybe with a better designed sail this may be less of a problem.

Zipping/Unzipping the bag was a real pain on the boats I sailed, it was too high and I couldn't reach the end of the boom because it was over the sprayhood/bimini ... doing the balancing act along the coachroof and leaning out over the sprayhood/bimini to access the zip was precarious - and as the sail should always be ready to deploy, I unzipped in harbour/anchorage, and zipped up again when I was back on anchor or in the marina. This exposed the sail to UV even when we were motoring.

I had trouble reaching the main halyard where it attaches to the sail to make it fast and stop the sail being whipped up the mast in a blow. On my roller furling, I just had to engage or release the ratchet to lock or free the sail.

Reefing - maybe there is a good technique, but I'm bu66ered if I could find it .... reefing and taking reefs out while maintaining course with the wind aft of the beam didn't seem possible, halyard was very difficult to manage along with the reefing lines, and the lazyjacks interfered with the sail battens. Everything pressed hard against the spreaders, bending the battens didn't fill me with confidence either.

Taking reefs in I'd let a bit of halyard out while pulling the reefing lines in their clutches to take up the slack and rinse and repeat until the reef was in. Taking reefs out required releasing the reefing lines from their clutches and winching hard on the main halyard with the reefing lines getting thrown about by the flapping sail. It was exhausting and noisy compared to my roller reefing which I could do alone on all points of sail without excessive flapping.

... so having tried both, and not being too bothered about absolute performance, I prefer roller reefing.

Roller reefing is cr@p if the sail is old and stretched, it catches in the slot and jams, and slab reefing is cr@p unless you have good, frictionless cars (and an electric winch).

It's amazing how different experiences can be. I don't recognise any of those problems with my slab reefing.

 

[Clancy Moped]

I'm going back a few years now but friends of ours converted a 40-ish Beny to a boom roller, the reason behind it was he was not getting any younger and was not exactly in good health, I seem to remember it cost quite a lot, and he said it was brilliant, his wife however, was doing the heavy lifting and said out of hubby's earshot it was a was sod to work with. As I said this was good while ago and maybe things have improved.

 

[ashtead]

It would seem an extreme solution if you currently have lazy jacks and a stack pack. So far as the securing of the halliard when sail is down is concerned a climbing type carbinier on the the first stack pack line makes it far easier to unclip if worried about a lose halliard flipping around the radar or blip per reflector. Remember that with a furling boom(powered normally) you also have the inboom furler to rotate by some form of drive plus hoisting main as you do it. Even worse when lowering the rotation of boom is quite slow (no heading into wind ,undoing cockpit jammer and watching it neatly drop into stack pack in say 5 secs ) I sure there are benefits in terms of reefing . I guess I would try a test sail on say an xc42 . We have a stack pack on 42 and hoist with electric winch -no problems with full battens catching normally but the helm needs to keep head to wind when hoisting but it’s really not a big issue if you find the space to hoist . I’ve used inboom on a jongert and at 60 ft plus it’s great but I don’t think a so beneficial at 42ft .

 

[sigimae]

I have just gone the other way removing a furling boom that came with the boat and replacing it with a conventional slab reefing and lazy jack/stack pack system.
Wish I had replaced it as soon as I got the boat.

An over complicated system that is very fussy about boom height when reefing or lowering and needs an electric winch to achieve a smooth hoist and was prone to twisting and breaking battens.

The mast sail track ramp that moves the mainsail luff out to accommodate the furling drum self destructs on the 3 sets of spreaders in a SW gale over winter and has a significant sail area that feels and sounds like it is going to bring the rig down if sheeted off to try and prevent the former destructive tendancy.
The scandanavian manufacturer according to its social media and website is "customer focused" and while initally answered my queries about spares ( sailtrack extrusion joiners) needed to repair it, a simple question asking how I could prevent the damage happening again short of dropping the mast every time the wind pipes up resulted in me and the UK agent being ghosted with no emails or calls returned.

I gave up trying to fix it and spoke to Crusader Sails who rebuilt my main with conventional reef points and fittings, a Selden closed leech round full batten system, Stack pack and associated Lazy Jacks plus a Tidesmarine mast track. Combined with a conventional boom with a 4:1 outhaul and 3 sets of reefing pulleys my sail handling is now a revelation.
Biggish heavy main is easily raised by hand (2:1 main halyard helps) there are no protruding leech batten pockets to catch on the Lazy Jacks on the way up, winch is just needed for final luff tension, reefing is a doddle and come dropping time it is simply up on the topper, release the halyard and the sail flakes itself into the bag in a couple of seconds, zip it up and jobs a goodun.

OP if you want to give boom furling a go then if you are near South Dorset any time soon there is a Furlerboom and associated extrusions/ mast track sat on my drive awaiting me bothering to put it on ebay/skipping. Size is suitable for a 35m sq main with a luff of around 13m and foot around 4m.

Would I go back to a furling boom - no way!

 

[KeelsonGraham]

We have an in-boom system by Leisurefurl. It’s really good but you need to set the boom at a very precise angle for furling and unfurling. Even for a 34 footer the system is pricey (North of £35k)

Talk to VMG Technology Masts & Marine Systems Ltd.

 

[rotrax]

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of in-boom furling systems on 40+ ft yachts?

I'm not a fan of slab reefing or lazyjacks which is a personal preference, but a large number of boats are fitted with them - which would rule them out of my boat search.

Retrofitting a standard furling main means a new mast which is economically unviable - unless I get really lucky and find someone who wants to swap, or who will buy my mast/boom combo to offset the costs.

The other option is to retro-fit an in boom furling system - but I have no direct experience of them.

Any first hand advice would be greatly appreciated.

After eight seasons and more than 10,000 NM's I am happy with our in mast furling. As long as there is a bit of slack in the mainsheet and we are head to wind it goes in and out reliably.

Detractors mention shortcomings in sailing performance, which I fully accept.

If sailing perfomance was an issue for me, I would have bought a different boat!

No problem finding a modernish boat with in mast furling I think. Most builders now offer slab reefing as the option, not the standard set up.

We have almost all outhauls, trim and furling/reefing carried out by one powered Lewmar 40 winch. Only the Port side outhaul, trim and furling for the Code Zero on a furler uses a manual Lewmar 45, Starboard side is by the powered winch through a double decker twin foot block.

This system is perfect for a retired couple working a heavy long keel Motorsailer.

Reduce your search to vessels with in mast furling.


.

 

[Zing]

I read some reports from people who oversize with ball bearing mast cars on rails and say they are able to reef downwind easily. That’s a cheaper upgrade.

 

[rotrax]

I read some reports from people who oversize with ball bearing mast cars on rails and say they are able to reef downwind easily. That’s a cheaper upgrade.

That is, with respect, not Baggy's problem.

Like me, he is a Shorthouse and can't reach the stackpack/halyard etc.

He says he is involved in a boat search-pretty likely he will find a suitable vessel with In-Mast main furling within the EU.

 

[westernman]

In mast furling systems tend to be a bit fussy with point of sail, tension, boom angle etc.

Get it wrong, and it can jam spectacularly, particularly at a moment when it is most convenient and is blowing a full gale and you have it stuck with 3/4 of the main still out.

At least with in boom furling the sail sets much better in all conditions and if it jams, you can still safely get the sail down without tearing it to shreads.

But for me, lazy jacks and stack pack is definitely the way to go. T
They can be a pain to zip up, if the zip has not been kept clean and lubricated. Which is why you see most of them never zipped up.

An alternative, I would have thought, would be to have some velcro straps on them, or get some bungy hooks and some canvas loops strategically attached to the stack pack cover to hook the bungy cord onto.

PS. It never occurred to me some one would ever try to reef a main while sailing downwind. Certainly not doable on my boat in any conditions where you would want a reef in the main.

 

[rotrax]

In mast furling systems tend to be a bit fussy with point of sail, tension, boom angle etc.

Get it wrong, and it can jam spectacularly, particularly at a moment when it is most convenient and is blowing a full gale and you have it stuck with 3/4 of the main still out.

At least with in boom furling the sail sets much better in all conditions and if it jams, you can still safely get the sail down without tearing it to shreads.

But for me, lazy jacks and stack pack is definitely the way to go. T
They can be a pain to zip up, if the zip has not been kept clean and lubricated. Which is why you see most of them never zipped up.

An alternative, I would have thought, would be to have some velcro straps on them, or get some bungy hooks and some canvas loops strategically attached to the stack pack cover to hook the bungy cord onto.

PS. It never occurred to me some one would ever try to reef a main while sailing downwind. Certainly not doable on my boat in any conditions where you would want a reef in the main.

Again, with due respect, if it is blowing a full gale and you are only just reefing, you have left it a bit bloody late! For ANY type of reefing system.

We have a Charlston Spars set up, it was OE when Island Packet built the boat in 2007, so not in the first flush of youth and with the OE verticaly battened mainsail by Elvestrom Sails..

As long as First Mate heads into the wind I never have a problem putting it away or reefing. Just need a bit of slack in the mainsheet. If the boom is slightly to Port, it must be easier as the power winch makes less noise.

I had my adventures in Motorsport before sailing. Our boat is easy for a mid 70's couple with some mobility problems to manage, all from a safe fully enclosed rear cockpit. We dont need adventures now so are prudent in what we take on.

As, I suspect, are most who use this forum.

 

[B27]

Does anyone have any advice and/or experience of in-boom furling systems on 40+ ft yachts?

I'm not a fan of slab reefing or lazyjacks which is a personal preference, but a large number of boats are fitted with them - which would rule them out of my boat search.

Retrofitting a standard furling main means a new mast which is economically unviable - unless I get really lucky and find someone who wants to swap, or who will buy my mast/boom combo to offset the costs.

The other option is to retro-fit an in boom furling system - but I have no direct experience of them.

Any first hand advice would be greatly appreciated.

Surely there are plenty of used yachts with in-mast reefing if that's what you want?

In-mast is, I think, easier engineering than in-boom, because in-mast can use a nice simple loose-foot sail, while in-boom needs some cunning system to sort luff slides or keep the luff connected to the mast? I know it works on mega-yachts and rotating-mast aero rigs, I don't think it's easy engineering to convert a normal yacht, which is perhaps why it hasn't been adopted by anyone much?

 

[westernman]

Old pilot cutters used to reef the main by rolling it around the boom. There would be a kind of worm drive engaged with a handle at the mast end.

 

[B27]

Old pilot cutters used to reef the main by rolling it around the boom. There would be a kind of worm drive engaged with a handle at the mast end.....

Not just pilot cutters.
The problem is the lack of kicking strap, there were various 'claw' devices to go around the reefed sail, or a strap rolled up in the sail etc.
Also it was common for the outboard end of the boom to be fatter, so the clew was raised a bit as the sail was reefed.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks for all the responses .... I think I'll just stick to boats with in-mast furling. Don't get on with stack-packs when I have sailed them, and I really don't like going forward to make the halyard (which I have trouble reaching) fast in a blow. Roller reefing booms sound like they need a few more years in development and a drop in price.

We sail as a couple, we're both short, and roller reefing works very well for us as we're not really bothered about absolute performance.

We di have a bad experience on a charter boat with roller furling which had a knackered, stretched and worn out main. It had the stiffness of tissue paper and caused us no end of problems. The main would consistently jam when rolling out, the exiting sail would pick up loose sail material due to the stretch making the sail much fuller. It didn't wind tightly in the mast, and as the sail no longer had any stiffness it allowed the excess baggy material to be picked up and pulled out of the slot, resulting in a jam - rolling back in immediately the extra sailcloth come out released the jam if you were lucky - and we eventually figured out that we could only safely let sail out on a starboard tack - the force of the wind closed the slot completely and nothing could be picked up and pulled out.

Before we worked this out, we even sent a crew member up the mast with a wooden spoon to shove the jammed sail material back into the mast. Total nightmare before we understood exactly what the problem was - at one point we even thought it was due to mast bend.

When I then got my own boat with roller furling, I also got a new set of sails. I would still go head to wind to reef or let the sail out. ... but in a heavy see, going head to wind was not something my crew enjoyed - the change from apparent wind to real, combined with the waves and the heel induced by being close hauled resulted in quite a different sailing experience.

We found out that with the new sails I could actually reef or let sail out without changing course. I had that boat for 12 years and the roller furling was faultless and I loved it.

We could reef by just letting off a small amount of outhaul, roll in, let off a bit more, roll in, until the desired sail size was reached. Getting more sail out was just a case of keeping enough tension on the furling line while winching on the outhaul.

I will find a roller reefing boat, just thought there might be a way to consider slab reefing masts with a retrofit furling boom, but it looks like a no go.

 

[westernman]

Thanks for all the responses .... I think I'll just stick to boats with in-mast furling. Don't get on with stack-packs when I have sailed them, and roller reefing booms sound like they need a few more years in development and a drop in price.

I had roller furling for 12 years and it was faultless and I loved it - did have a new set of sails made by Crusader just after I got the boat, it never jammed and we could reef and let sail out on every point of sail. Just let off a small amount of outhaul, roll in, let off a bit more, roll in.

Getting more sail out was just a case of keeping enough tension on the roller while winching on the outhaul.

Roller reefing booms were used on Bristol Channel Pilot cutters 120 years ago.
How many more years development to you think is needed?