Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Very much something to bear in mind. We’d do it to ditch a petrol outboard and associated smells. Not particularly because it’s ‘ green’.
"In 2-3 years time, we won't fit another Diesel engine"
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johnalison
Well-known member
Apart from my childhood holidays there, all my cruises on the Broads were in engineless sailing boats, two or four berthed. I never failed to cover almost all the northern broads in a week and greatly enjoyed the feeling of not knowing where one would end up the following night. Unfortunately, this is not really a recipe for an enjoyable cruise at sea. Perhaps after retirement I might have ventured out of home waters with next to no motoring ability, but cruises during my working life would have been very limited indeed. East coast to the Channel Isles and back in three weeks was something we did several times in our then Sadler 29, and although there was one memorable cruise when we did it almost entirely under sail, it would not have been something I would have embarked on without an engine to back me up. The nearest to ‘auxiliary’ status I owned was the Dolphin 2-stroke petrol engine in my Mystere. Cruising speed was four and three quarter knots under power. I don’t remember the tankage but it wasn’t much but we managed Normandy as far as Caen and the Netherlands to the Ijselmeer, though it was something of a relief to get the longer legs of the Sadler.We can argue all we want - you do, you do... and 55 miles doesn't sound like much range under power, but it's worth remembering that it's 55 miles further than most of the boats available to normal people a century ago and they managed.
Sure, there were far fewer people sailing as a hobby, we're spoiled rotten, with many of our boats providing a better standard of living than probably most people's homes back then. Inside toilets (two of them sometimes), hot & cold running water, electric lighting, central heating - you lot don't know you're alive! Yes I know you don't all have everything on the list, neither do I, but you know very well what I mean. First world problems, eh?
My Mum used to say you cut your coat according to your cloth. If you haven't got an engine, you sail towards your destination, not drive to it like a mobo and, if the wind's in the wrong direction, you go somewhere else or tack. It's a different way of doing things, not necessarily a worse one.
It's also worth mentioning that most customers of Spirit yachts can just call their office and say they'll be working remotely - or take a private plane helicopter back - or just not care!
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
The real question is how much is left after we remove the the biggest culprits? If there's 60 groups out there all contributing about 1% then aux engines are actually part of a larger group that contributes 60% and likely to get targeted as such. Interestingly if you think of the PHEV argument sailing yachts actually could average quite high mileage per CO2 unit.
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
You could think of it another way - they are willing to spend their money and be early adopters to help the funding and development of greener technology and systems.
Supertramp
Well-known member
Its very impressive and illustrates the appeal of the system.
My comment about Fischer Panda was based on the difficulty some experience in maintaining and repairing them. Which is not something a Spirit owner will worry about. I also like the regeneration system while sailing - a great way to generate electricity on a sailing boat once you have an electric drive.
I am uneasy that some of these developments rely on electronics and integration in a similar way to modern cars making DIY, retrofit and general meddling difficult. The problem with relying on big companies and well heeled pioneer consumers is that the solutions can become expensive and get a simplicity bypass.
You could (and some boats do) have a simple system with a basic diesel generating engine, supplementary energy capture systems and lead acid storage with a simple electric drive without excessive technology. I think internal combustion engines and their emissions even in marine settings will come under increasing pressure even if they are a relatively small part of the problem.
Spirit are thinking the way I would be thinking if I was a boat manufacturer. The speed of the change and effect on secondhand and older boats is harder to forsee - imagine a "green" marina or marine area where only certain certified emissions or CO2 footprints were permitted. Antarctica, Great Lakes, European waterways?
doug748
Well-known member
The biggest culprits won't easily be removed Small ships, big boats, coastal workboats have huge power requirements. Topping them up with electricity, even if it where possible, means shunting the difficulty somewhere else. The total fuel used by sailing yachts in the UK pa would keep a single, fairly large offshore ship going for about a week.
There is another chart attached to the one above that estimates the emissions from all coastal craft, it shows the relative emission of CO2 from auxiliary yachts as being zero % ie nothing, a figure, I guess, so small as not to be worth computing or printing.
I don't mind a bit of tokenism, it's probably good for general morale, but you have to try and tease out what is really going on. I think the Spirit yachts mentioned will possibly be fitting massively heavy, expensive complex and inefficient drive trains which, in the final analysis, many owners will simply power with liquid fuels.
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flaming
Well-known member
I think this is absolutely spot on.
I can't help but feel that a lot of people are adopting something of a "head in sand" mentality over the shift away from ICE power in all walks of life.
The arguments about quite how small a percentage of total emissions something creates are going to fall on deaf ears. It's really hard to see new ICE powered boats being permitted to be sold for long after ICE powered cars are not. The politics of it just don't work when you've banned a petrol fiesta, but not a 60 foot Sunseeker. Auxiliary powered sailing boats will just be collateral damage in that debate. And we shouldn't lose sight of the pollution effect of our engines in the picturesque and delicate places that we like to visit. There was a stand at the boat show, the Green blue, and they had run a brand new, up to date, outboard in a tank for half an hour. The state of the water was pretty shocking to be honest.
You can make the argument about displaced pollution all you like, but if you're displacing the pollution away from the delicate marine environment where you want to play.... That's a good thing right? And of course if most of the power is coming from solar and regen the whole argument shifts into cleaning up manufacturing of the products needed to make that work, rather than how you are generating the electricity.
Right now we need companies like Spirit, and their wealthy customers, to be out there working out how to make this work, and I thought their comments were very interesting.
Ink
Active member
Yes I can see all these boats sitting in marina with their sails up charging away.
Ink
Maybe, but I think the route will be developed not by the likes of niche companies (think Spirit) but by large conglomerates who will push the envelope much more efficiently and economically than a relatively small company. I'm thinking companies like Tesla will develop power trains that will in time become adaptableto the marine environment. Much like what happened in the fifties. Our first boat had a Morris Veddette engine - established technology. Nothing new, fancy or expensive.
Leave Spirit to the dreamers.
Ink
Bouba
Well-known member
I think that people are unfairly condemning the rich for pioneering alternative energy forms.
I wonder if those are similar to the people who complain about the lack of decent secondhand boats…just remember that a boat starts off it’s life owned by a wealthy person. And mass market EV leaders Tesla started by selling exotic EVs to the Californian wealthy.
You can argue with socialists all day long about whether the trickle down economy actually works or not…but in the boating world it is it’s life’s blood.
And I speak as someone who does his lottery ticket every week because I want to be wealthy
I wonder if those are similar to the people who complain about the lack of decent secondhand boats…just remember that a boat starts off it’s life owned by a wealthy person. And mass market EV leaders Tesla started by selling exotic EVs to the Californian wealthy.
You can argue with socialists all day long about whether the trickle down economy actually works or not…but in the boating world it is it’s life’s blood.
And I speak as someone who does his lottery ticket every week because I want to be wealthy
flaming
Well-known member
What Spirit are doing is exactly that, taking established technology and adapting it to the marine market. And in the process learning a lot about what works, and what needs improvement. Those lessons can then feed into the wider marine industry.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Full marks to them for starting down that road. I’ll never be in the market for one, (They were abominably rude to us at British Classics, never mind the cost) but it’s good to see them try
Bouba
Well-known member
You know, I also held a grudge against Galeon boats because of the way I was treated at the Paris boat show....it’s been several years now, should I let go of it....or be just like you?
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
That depends on the level of insult, and how gratuitous it was. It’s not a loss to me, I don’t really want a Spirit, fabulous though they are. My 3/4 mill would go to Quorning.
Bouba
Well-known member
I had to look that up because they sounded like a breakfast cereal
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
The new 40 is much of a price with a Spirit. Not much wood, lots of carbon though. It’s an off the shelf 25kn sail boat.
Bouba
Well-known member
I’ll tell you what annoys me? by the forêt d’Orient at the source of the Seine are some boating lakes...one of them is electric only..people usually use trolling motors...and also small sailboats use the lake. But for some reason, the sailboats are allowed ice engines...and so they are used mostly as motorboats, hardly as sailboats because it’s a small lake...but motorboats are banned??.
Of course this was a couple of decades ago and maybe the rules have changed....I don’t know...I only know that I like to remain mad
.Of course this was a couple of decades ago and maybe the rules have changed....I don’t know...I only know that I like to remain mad
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Almost worth buying an electric hydrofoil boat just to p1$$ them off.
KevinV
Well-known member
Got to agree with this - Small, ugly EV's and milkfloats have been around for a hundred years and nobody wanted them - Musk realised that all automotive innovation starts at the top end of the market and works its way down - make it desirable, make
wealthy people want to pay lots for that desire, then when everybody wants one you can to scale it up.
I'm sure the same will be true of electric drivetrains for boats - electric canal boats have been around for decades to no avail, but there are now some pretty sexy electric motorboat designs coming to the top end of the market, and the likes of Spirit are leading the way for proper boats . It won't be too long before everyone wants this and a few more years before people start coughing in a meaningful way when you chug past in the marina.