importing a 1974 boat from Holland

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cpthook

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hi there, just wondered if there's any obligation to report to a uk customs office having bought and sailed a boat from Holland into the UK. Do I need to present myself in person with my passport since I am returning into the UK? I presume that the RCD is not applicable since the boat is 1974? Would I need to produce paperwork to show she is vat paid?

Thanks
Dude
 
Just out of interest, if the seller does not pass to me a vat receipt, would I pay 17.5% of the purchase price or 15%?

Is she vat exempt if I can prove she was built in the EU and kept there on a certain date in 1992?

Dude
 
If you purchased it from a private EU citizen then you do not have to "report" to anyone. There is no VAT payable on transactions between private EU citizens. For your own benefit you should have a Bill of Sale from the vendor clearly transferring title to you. The RYA publish guidance on documentation. The only extra step you might need is to formally remove it from the Dutch register, but you need to check this with the authorities there. You can, if you are an eligible person, place it on the Part 3 (SSR) UK register. You can do all this before you bring the boat into the UK, so you will be just like any other UK citizen with a UK registered boat. No formalities (until the dreaded E Borders cometh!)
 
my boat is vat exempt, vat not paid on original purchase
the previous owner (A German National ) was the first owner, the boat built in the UK spent 18 yrs in Holland. he provided a Swarn document stating she was in Holland on whatever date it was so the document is very important as to vat status
 
It is highly unlikely there will be a VAT receipt - VAT may not even have existed in Holland in 1974!. Any way it is completely irrelevant. If you buy a boat in the EU from a private citizen there is no VAT. If you import it from outside the EU, then you will have to pay VAT as the person who "puts it on the EU market". But this does not apply in your case. If you are happy with your title then buy the boat and enjoy it. There is no offence committed if you do not have a "VAT receipt" - if there were most UK citizens would be guilty of the offence - not just for their boats, but their cars, caravans, electric drills from B&Q and any other item that was subject to a VAT "chargeable event".

If you are buying from a VAT registered trader, it is different, but it is for him to account for the VAT, not you, and to issue you with a receipt showing his VAT details. But this is nothing to do with a boat acquiring "VAT paid status" as such a concept does not exist in law. The tax is on the financial transaction, not the asset.
 
This is wrong!
It is not whether VAT is payable on the most recent sale of the boat, but if VAT was paid on the original sale of the boat.
I beleive that 1973 was the date when VAT was introduced, but if you can prove it was moored in the EU on 31/12/1992, that is OK, but proof is usually recognised as a receipt for mooring or an insurance document, you would need to check with the UK VAT people if an affidavit was suitable.
Dutch customs (at least in Rotterdam) wouldn't issue a VAT (BTW in Dutch) paid certificate on a boat that old - I know I tried to get one!
 
I quote from HMRC:
[ QUOTE ]
Certain vessels that were in use as private pleasure craft prior to 1 January 1985 and were in the EU on 31 December 1992, may be deemed VAT paid under the Single Market transitional arrangements. As Austria, Finland and Sweden joined the EU later, the relevant dates for vessels in these countries are ‘in use’ before 1 January 1987 and moored in EU on 31 December 1994

[/ QUOTE ] You can be asked to prove these dates, although that is extremely unlikely. If the previous woner has a mooring receipt for 31 Dec 1994 that would be useful . . .
 
Yes, but it is not for this purchaser to prove anything. If he buys the boat from an EU citizen he only needs title. There is no offence for not being able to "prove" VAT has been paid as such proof by definition does not exist. The nearest he might get is a copy of an invoice with a VAT number on it. As there is no requirement to keep VAT records for more than 6 years, there is no way of "proving" that the Revenue (any revenue) received the money!

There are tens (probably hundreds) of thousands of boats in use throughout the EU where there is no documentary evidence of VAT payment, nor of meeting the 1992 in use requirement. As far as I know, but I stand to be corrected, there has not been one single case of a boat owner being "charged" VAT because he is unable to produce documents. There is a very simple reason for this. VAT is a specific sales tax collected in a financial transaction known as a a chargeable event and it is collected by the trader. Revenue do not collect VAT from individuals except in the specific case where a boat (or car etc) is first imported into the EU by an individual. VAT is payable on the value - usually the purchase price. Very clear guidelines on this from RYA and HMRC.

And just to make it clear HMRC cannot issue "VAT paid" certificates for older boats because firstly they are not needed and secondly there is no record of VAT attaching to a particular boat. Just as an extra twist, if you buy a boat from HMRC (for example a seized drug dealer's boat that the court has authorized for disposal), you will not get a VAT receipt because the revenue is not a VAT registered trader and is acting as a private individual. So you just get a Bill of Sale and a receipt.
 
From HMRC document found here

[ QUOTE ]
EU residents should only use a vessel in the Community if it is VAT paid or ‘deemed’ VAT paid. Documentary evidence supporting this should be carried at all times as you may be asked by customs officials in other Member States to provide evidence of your vessel’s VAT status.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are buying from a business or an individual in the EU with no liability to account for VAT, you should obtain evidence that VAT, if it had ever been due in the EU, has been accounted for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there have been many cases in France and Portugal of boats being impounded for not having the correct VAT documentation.

I spent a lot of time investigating this, including talking to people on the HMRC help line, when I was looking at buying a boat with no VAT documentation.

HMRC may not issue VAT paid certificates, but the Dutch customs do, its called a BTW Vrij document.
 
It would be good to see real evidence such as reports of court cases rather than an "I believe" statement.

I would also be interested to know whether the Revenue ever supported their advice with a specific reference to a statute or a Regulation. These important legal sources are singularly lacking in the document you refer to.

And note that the term used is "accounted for" - the obligation to "account for" is on the trader, not the purchaser. Even then, there is no definitive evidence that the money paid on a specific boat forms part of any payment to the revenue. The only evidence would be through an audit of the trader's accounts to confirm the invoice was raised in the period and that the monies received were included in the calculation for the trader's return for the period. But the trader is only required to keep records for 6 years!

You might also ask the Revenue what the rules are for cars, caravans, motorcycles and all the other high value assets that are subject to VAT. Have you ever been asked for evidence of VAT payment when you drive your car in other EU states?

If boats are impounded it will almost certainly be for reasons to do with a criminal or civil offence. If the offence is related to VAT it is most likely that VAT fraud by traders is involved - not private individuals.
 
Having had boat documentation scrutinised by French, Portuguese and Spanish authorities, none have ever asked for the Vat document.
It is most likely (IMO) to be asked for when you sell the boat to a fellow forumite. It would be interesting to know how may here have actually been asked to prove the vat status, and under what circumstances.
 
Again a well reasoned argument backed up with logical "source".
We get this all the time here, the tooth suckers with their urban myths, i have always argued that the forumites get their knickers in a twist over this issue, backed up with articles in PBO that are vague and purport to be the definitive. I was speaking to a major Sottish dealer a few months ago on this very subject, she said the same, a certain magazine has perpetuated the myths about VAT status docs.
Any way if anybody is that worried think this through, I have an accounting package for my VAT registered biz, I print VAT invoices every day. Supposing the french authorities were to ask for proof of vat paid on a computer, bought of me, taken to france, the punter produces an invoice off me, there is no record of that computer by serial number or what ever supplied by me to the reveners, all i do is produce a return every 3 months for the reveners, showing what i have bought in terms of monetary value, what i have sold and the difference in value in VAT i pay them, no records of individual goods sold go to the reveners. The reveners do not have, never have had and never will have, details of goods sold.
In the case of "vehicule" sellers, they keep a stock book with a note of vehicules in, so if les douaniers wanted to check if the "vehicule" had been VAT paid then they would have to check with the producer of the invoice as to whether they did in fact make that transaction on the day of the invoice, the seller would then have to look up his records to see if he did. As T says, 6 years and you can bin the records, so after 6 years there are no records. Now the next thing is that monsuier les douaniers do not have the right to go asking foreign dealers for records, it is fact that the biz of VAT is the biz of the country from whence the sailor came. this is law enshrined in all eec countries, the "law" of the country from whence they came from is what governs visitors. That is why we can get away with less stringent rules applying to our boats when in france, (until the commissioners feck us all like they are trying to do with the irish)
Now, if you are still with me, the invoice i produce, acceptable to the vat authorities in this country is a plain piece of a4, printed by my laser printer, bog std, quick books invoice. How does the authorities check whether that invoice is printed by me or the man in the moon? They cant, see above, so they take it at face value.
Anyone can buy a copy of quick books, sage or what ever and print as many invoices as they like!!!
Stu
 
What is really sad is that the RYA continues to propogate the HMRCs unsupportable line. And now even Finance Houses are refusing to advance money against a boat unless a borrower can produce the "evidence".

As usual we need a history lesson. When we joined the EU and customs duties for over 50% of our imports disappeared our masters realised there were going to be huge redundancy costs getting rid of Customs and Excise. So they gave them the job of collecting VAT. In the old days C&E had extensive powers for Search and Investigation - far wider than the Police. They stilll have those in relation to Excise and in a narrow sense with VAT - to pursue fraud amongst VAT traders. They have no such powers over individuals in respect of VAT, unless they suspect you of importing something without paying VAT. However they like to THINK they have power, and try to exercise it through their "guidance" which has no status in law as far as I can see (and they never claim it is law).

So everybody is scared of them, but nobody bothers to challenge, I guess because they have never actually tried to charge anybody with an offence that is not related to fraud.

I am just astonished that the RYA colludes with them, but maybe there is something I don't know!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am just astonished that the RYA colludes with them, but maybe there is something I don't know!

[/ QUOTE ] Because the RYA is in the "regulation" business. As well as doing some great training (and getting us some awesome Olympic results) they only exist because of the income they get from selling accreditation and certificates; Nothing would please them more than the following two pieces of legislation:

1. All skippers must be qualified
2. Central register of boats with ownership, VAT status etc etc and annual registration fee - a sort of DVLC for watercraft

Both the above would keep them in business for ever
 
Have no idea how you come to that conclusion, given their vigorous defence of education not compulsory qualifications. And don't forget that they were the prime movers in the introduction of the SSR, rather than compulsory registration.

These are examples where the RYA has acted in yotties' interests with some success (in the case of the SSR total success). That is why I am "astonished" that they kow tow over VAT.
 
Tranona said:
Yes, but it is not for this purchaser to prove anything. If he buys the boat from an EU citizen he only needs title. There is no offence for not being able to "prove" VAT has been paid as such proof by definition does not exist. The nearest he might get is a copy of an invoice with a VAT number on it. As there is no requirement to keep VAT records for more than 6 years, there is no way of "proving" that the Revenue (any revenue) received the money!

There are tens (probably hundreds) of thousands of boats in use throughout the EU where there is no documentary evidence of VAT payment, nor of meeting the 1992 in use requirement. As far as I know, but I stand to be corrected, there has not been one single case of a boat owner being "charged" VAT because he is unable to produce documents. There is a very simple reason for this. VAT is a specific sales tax collected in a financial transaction known as a a chargeable event and it is collected by the trader. Revenue do not collect VAT from individuals except in the specific case where a boat (or car etc) is first imported into the EU by an individual. VAT is payable on the value - usually the purchase price. Very clear guidelines on this from RYA and HMRC.

And just to make it clear HMRC cannot issue "VAT paid" certificates for older boats because firstly they are not needed and secondly there is no record of VAT attaching to a particular boat. Just as an extra twist, if you buy a boat from HMRC (for example a seized drug dealer's boat that the court has authorized for disposal), you will not get a VAT receipt because the revenue is not a VAT registered trader and is acting as a private individual. So you just get a Bill of Sale and a receipt.
Click to expand...
 
Just sail over and park somewhere...the more people that ask THE AUTHORITIES the more likelihood they will invent something or find a little codicil to an addendum that means JOBSWORTH can get another pound of flesh!
 
If we are Canadian selling a boat, built in the Netherlands in 1977, moored in France ,customs will not have a record of Vat paid and will not issue a VAT certificate? We are trying to sell this boat and because we do not have a VAT receipt the buyers will not proceed as they want proof the VAT is paid. Who is going to keep a receipt proving it was in the Netherlands in 1992?
 
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