I'm sold - a Junk rig for my girl!

[tomski]

Hello all,
Excuse the possible repeat of topic, did some searching on here but could not find anything related....

I've done some reading on the junk rig advantages and seems ideal for the type of sailing I want to do (ie cruising, definitely not interested in racing)...so wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction on how to begin...

So far I've also read the pdf's on the junk rig association page, quite informative and now I understand that I cannot recycle my mast which is a bit of a shame and someone like Sunbird can help me in rigging etc...

But I wonder if there is a chance of recycling and what is the most (ie cheapest) but sensible way of moving forward...I am handy able so can do most of the work myself (or with some assistance from a couple of mates) and appreciate any help/direction you can offer

 

[hunter_europa]

I had a junk rig a few years ago but to be honest I was never totally happy with it, just a matter of personal preference though.

If your mast is keel stepped then there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to reuse it, just take the shrouds off. The only issue I can think of is that I do remember that my junk mast was a bit taller than the standard rig mast on similarly sized boats and that the mast on a junk tends to be further forward than conventional masts too.

What type of boat are you planning on converting, and is the mast keel or deck stepped?

 

[tomski]

Yes should have said its a Wing 25 a rather heavy cruiser (I just bought her)...mast is deck stepped, so I guess will need to move forwd anyways...out of curiosity why didnt you like it?

 

[hunter_europa]

I'm by no means any kind of expert on this but I think the mast will have to be keel stepped, to use the junk rig properly the shrouds would get in the way. Although I'm sure somebody else here will know better than I do!

I wasn't a huge fan mostly because I was just used to a conventional rig, however some of the things that annoyed me were the fact that due to the way the main sheet works it is very long and when the sail is up fully the cockpit was literally full of rope. Also, the rig just looks messy when not up but that's just my OCD kicking in!

I did think that the hype about how easy they were to sail single handed wasn't quite as good as it was made out to be although it was by no means difficult. Have you been out on one?

 

[tomski]

No I havent, would love to go on one...the biggest reason is the single hand easy that I read about...it seems almost too easy and its only one sail to control the boat rathr than two so in times of problems this is an advantage to me....

 

[chrisedwards]

Please do not be put off the junk rig. It is superior in every way to bermudan but you have to study it carefully.

Faster - we beat so called faster boats in the 2010 RTI race
Beautiful - Bermudan is so ugly with its crude triangles

If you like actually sailing and I mean sailing everywhere in every situation then the junk rig will allow you to do this. A bermudan does not but then they start their engines. So if you like proper sailing go for junk.

No noise, whistling, good visibility and FAR more ropes on a bermudan - just go and look - These people responding just do not have the experience in junk rigs.

The junk rig is subtle and sophisticated. Women like it intuitively I suppose but also because their partner appears so unstressed.

But you must do your homework - read Blondie Hasler and all the associated books. Go on junk rig rallies and talk to experts. You can get a dog junk rig boat and sail just like you can a bermudan - but it will be your fault.

Remember - junk rig is superior in every way - I just cannot see any advantage the bermudan has over it. Junk rig is better performing these days - but you will find this out if you work at it.

 

[Poignard]

If your mast is keel stepped then there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to reuse it, just take the shrouds off. The only issue I can think of is that I do remember that my junk mast was a bit taller than the standard rig mast on similarly sized boats and that the mast on a junk tends to be further forward than conventional masts too.

Is the location of the mast in a boat designed for bermudan rig in the right place for junk-rig?

 

[junkrig]

G'day seawing,
You will have to read "Practical Junk Rig" by Jack Mcleod(i think), if you are considering changing a bermudan rig to junk rig.
I suggest you also consider the various (imho) improvements on the junk rig, I have a junk rig that is essentially a fully battened gaff rig, sheeted in the junk rig way, this variation allows for a good sized jib to be flown in light air, without the problem of it getting caught on the front of the sail.

The junk rigs are very very easy to manage single handed, there is very little stress(imho) on the boat, as you havent stressed up the boat with standing rigging.

some downsides:
The cockpit IS full of lines when the sail is raised, but I have made large rope bags & now that is solved.
The standing rigging is handy to hold onto while moving around the boat, it takes a little while to get used to not having it there.
The keel stepped mast takes up a bit of space below, I have turned the forepeak into a large storage area, so it doesnt bother me.
The mainsheet (on my boat) tends to sweep the cockpit when tacking/gybing, I need to remember to look out for it.

some photos of my Top Hat 25 junk rig: http://www.tophatyachts.org/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=375

a short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSRRYuqgMXM

Personally I would only buy a JR that is already up & running than spending the time & money to convert a bermudan rig.

I havent sailed mine in the ocean yet, so I cant comment on performance.
cheers

Shaun

 

[Ceirwan]

Junk rig is better performing these days - but you will find this out if you work at it.

Which is of course why the latest high tech racing yachts use it.
I'll admit the junk rig is probably much easier to handle (though I've personally never had trouble with a well thought out bermudan system) but I'm pretty sure you can't say it's faster, just because you've beaten 'similar' boats. A lot of it comes down to the skill of the people sailing it after all.

Each to their own, but your post seemed almost bordering on the fanatic!

 

[hunter_europa]

I think changing your boat to a junk would also reduce it's value. You know I'm not a fan (and I have owned one) although that is just a matter of preference but one shared by the majority of people so selling it on may be a problem. Would fitting a roller reefing headsail not be a good option if you want to sail single handed?

 

[chrisedwards]

Which is of course why the latest high tech racing yachts use it.
I'll admit the junk rig is probably much easier to handle (though I've personally never had trouble with a well thought out bermudan system) but I'm pretty sure you can't say it's faster, just because you've beaten 'similar' boats. A lot of it comes down to the skill of the people sailing it after all.

Each to their own, but your post seemed almost bordering on the fanatic!

So Seawing - take your choice. I had to come in as all the comments were negative. I am advising you to do intensive research and get extensive experience and have already been labelled a fanatic. I question whether the respondents have done this.

Lets look briefly at some of the arguments given:

Bermudan is faster because hi tec racing yachts use it - where does one start - on the Jester forum?

Never had trouble with handling bermudan - he hasnt really sailed but used the engine in close quarters work - please read my original post.

What better way to show how fast the junk rig is than the Round the Island? - Best I can do I'm afraid but we were overtaking "faster boats" on the wind. - research the results and other forums.

Junk rigs are easier to sell - the demand is higher thans supply - I have been involved in the sale of seven -at a good price - in four years - people ask me for them - two people have asked for my present boat in the last few days.

Comments from people who have owned junks - great - but do your research - did they own "dogs" - see my first post. The latest generation of cambered junks are superb performers. Did they do what so many did - put a junk sail on a barge?

Best wishes

 

[Ceirwan]

Never had trouble with handling bermudan - he hasnt really sailed but used the engine in close quarters work - please read my original post.

This was the main reason I felt the need to comment on this issue, I find that incredibly patronising. Based on no knowledge whatsoever of my sailing you have decided that I use an engine for close quarters manoeuvring. (And that the Junk boats of course NEVER use the engine for handling)
In mariners I do use the engine, simply because we're not allowed to sail in the ones near here.

However in my last 'unhandy and inferior rigged' bermudan sloop I used to regularly sail in and out of the mud berth it was kept in, this wasn't an easy to pick up swinging mooring in the middle of a river, you had to beat up an intricate mud channel and get into the berth without damaging the long line of other boats and smacking the pontoon.
Oddly enough the junk rigged yacht we have here has never sailed in once to my knowledge.

My point about the speed is you are likely sailing your boat better than them, if you want to put it down to the rig rather than you sailing the boat better then feel free.

Please don't assume that just because someone owns a bermudan rig they don't ever sail their boat into close quarters situations, there are a lot of people around who take pride in they're seamanship.

 

[paul.norton]

Join the Junkrig Forum

Seawing,

I'm in the process of renovating a Hurley 22 which I found in a derelict condition. As there was no rig with the vessel I propose to build a junk rig rather than the conventional bermudian.

Join this group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/[/URL] and when you have done so, look in the files section then open Arne Kverneland's Files. This file has several sub-sections - open 1. Technical Files and you will find various PDFs. A good place to start is his Junk Rig for Beginners.

Arne has done a lot of research into the junk rig and describes the cambered junk sail which offers improved windward performance compared to a "flat" sail.

Regards, Paul

P.S. There is NO WAY you can use a formally stayed mast as an un-stayed mast.

 

[tomski]

Thanks everyone for the great advice for and against the setup of junk rig...I am continuing to research the topic however for what I want it for (ie extended single hand trips) I am swayed towards the junk rig option purely for the fact that it is a lot easier to manage as a single hander when situation deteriorates quickly...not worried about the resale value or speed for that matter as the wing 25s are a very heavy displaced boat (6100lbs)

Anyhow thanks also for the advice on books and groups will join/purchase to read more into it...

 

[chrisedwards]

This was the main reason I felt the need to comment on this issue, I find that incredibly patronising. Based on no knowledge whatsoever of my sailing you have decided that I use an engine for close quarters manoeuvring. (And that the Junk boats of course NEVER use the engine for handling)
In mariners I do use the engine, simply because we're not allowed to sail in the ones near here.

However in my last 'unhandy and inferior rigged' bermudan sloop I used to regularly sail in and out of the mud berth it was kept in, this wasn't an easy to pick up swinging mooring in the middle of a river, you had to beat up an intricate mud channel and get into the berth without damaging the long line of other boats and smacking the pontoon.
Oddly enough the junk rigged yacht we have here has never sailed in once to my knowledge.

My point about the speed is you are likely sailing your boat better than them, if you want to put it down to the rig rather than you sailing the boat better then feel free.

Please don't assume that just because someone owns a bermudan rig they don't ever sail their boat into close quarters situations, there are a lot of people around who take pride in they're seamanship.

Awefully sorry Ceiwan. You have told me a lot about yourself to fully justify your reference to me being patronising - I was.

Now - how do you think I feel about you calling me a fanatic? You know nothing about me.

 

[Lady Campanula]

Gentlemen, gentlemen.... The 'ad hominem' mode of discussion rarely takes us forward in these e-pages. Far better to back off ( not 'back down' ), and agree to take a different tack. That way, the rest of us - who are truly interested - can benefit, too.

 

[Gitane]

Fibreglass masts on a junk rig boat

To bring the topic back to junk rigs, I am considering converting my 21ft boat to a junk rig.

I am looking at the options for the mast. One of the options I am looking at is a mast made from a fibreglass flagpole.

Some of the flagpoles I have come across can apparently take up to 100mph of wind with the flag in place.

Does anyone have any experience of fibre glass masts on a small junk rig boat? Are they strong enough for the job?

Gitane.

 

[Signed Out]

To bring the topic back to junk rigs, I am considering converting my 21ft boat to a junk rig.

I am looking at the options for the mast. One of the options I am looking at is a mast made from a fibreglass flagpole.

Some of the flagpoles I have come across can apparently take up to 100mph of wind with the flag in place.

Does anyone have any experience of fibre glass masts on a small junk rig boat? Are they strong enough for the job?

Gitane.

Certainly a q for the Junk Rig Assoc, but can't see why not possible, but feasible or sensible may be another matter. Carbon masts are common, even unstayed (freedoms and dinghies), but am only aware of windsurfers using grp masts. A flag has less area than a sail, so more stress likely.

 

[Tahitibelle]

Junk rig

If you are not already, be aware there are several versions of Junk rig, some more seaworthy and suitable for the Jester Azores challenge than others. I have the aluminium flexi battern model and have just wrecked it last week coming back to Newhaven from La Havre in force 7. So its back to the drawing board for me.

 

[chrisedwards]

If you are not already, be aware there are several versions of Junk rig, some more seaworthy and suitable for the Jester Azores challenge than others. I have the aluminium flexi battern model and have just wrecked it last week coming back to Newhaven from La Havre in force 7. So its back to the drawing board for me.

Sounds an interesting voyage Tahitibelle. You are right of course - just like marconi rigs you can get more suitable set ups for proper ocean going. The Westerly Longbow, in which I crewed for the 2010 RTI race, had ordinary scaffold poles for battens and we beat so many "faster boats". Stiff battens with sewn in camber sails is the up and coming set up now.