ignorance or arogance?

[sea]

I'm astonished that they have been allowed a berth in a harbour without producing a 3rd Party Insurance cert. I have always been required to produce one. Perhaps it's only because I look like a duffer? Its it only me?

never once been asked?

 

[silver-fox]

As an experienced boater talking to newcomers who are unaware of the dangers or the actions that can be taken to minimize them, I think it is your duty to help. The only question is how to get the vital information across without sounding patronizing. I think giving them a copy of the RNLI CD would be a very good way.

Well said SnowLeopard!

 

[chubby]

Hi Toad, no idea who the sponsor is for "decent cuppa", just thought it was ammusing and what I felt like after a long trip and a sign we are back in home waters!

 

[mikemonty]

Without sounding patronising? No Problem!
The conversation could be manipulated along these lines - sorry if that sounds cynical but I mean to manipulate in a nice way so that even if the intent of conversation is obvious the intention of the manipulator is obviously good!

"I've got a boat now!"

Excellent, What's it like?

"Small boat, outboard etc..."

Sounds good, what stuff did you get with it?

"nothing much, the outboard toolkit, manual and a few seatcushions..."

Any lifejackets?

"Nah!..."

I've got some old ones you could refurb.
OR
I know where you could get some cheap serviceable ones... etc

Where have you got in mind to go in it?

"Dunno, maybe here & there..."

Maybe you should get yourself some charts and a compass and/or a handheld GPS. -
I could get you a copy of the RNLI CD if you like.

And so it goes.

NOT
How much experience do you have?
Have you done any courses?
Give me an inventory of your safety gear (per the OP)
THIS sounds to me like someone trying to score points. In fact - the acid test - would the OP even willingly show his first post on this subject to the person he talked to - I don't think so.

 

[Observer]

speaking to someone at work the other day her and hubby have aquired small mobo and been given outboard, i ask the following; do you have insurance? no its only a small boat and we stay in the harbour, lifejackets? there expensive, vhf?blank look, chart whats a chart? and what about harbour dues?.
how many more accidents waiting to happen are out there?
discuss

What's harbour dues got to do with "accidents waiting to happen"?

If you're always in a harbour do you really need VHF? Or charts? If I'm willing to accept a risk uninsured, why should I have insurance?

LJs - well yes; but even then there is a line to be crossed between "not needed" and "essential safety equipment". You may, for all sorts of reasons, draw the line at point A and someone else at point B.

 

[fireball]

If I'm willing to accept a risk uninsured, why should I have insurance?

Because if you're motoring around a beach, and chop someones leg off who is swimming ...
or, your concentration slips/there is a mech failure and you hit another vessel causing significant damage to said vessel.

Lifejackets/charts/compass/HH GPS - rather depends on the user IMHO - ok, if you're intending on spending a while on the boat then LJs are handy - but if you know the inland area you're going to then charts/HH GPS/compass.
HH VHF is another debatable - if you've got mobile phone and know where you are then VHF is not really nescersary (again IMHO!). It's not like at open sea where it is harder to spot someone in trouble.

 

[Fire99]

(some good stuff)

Absolutely,

If my mate is about to buy a car which I think is going to be a heartbreak waiting to happen, I'll give my opinion but clearly not start by interrogating them for the poor decision they've made. I also try and help with alternatives etc.

Back on boating. We should be encouraging new boat owners and surely we still know how to relate to one and other without a 'holier than thou' attitude.
I admit to knowing very little when I first got started and I still tip my hat to Buffer down at Maylandsea who would regularly give me little pointers to help me along the way when, funnily enough, I got my first little cabin-cruiser with an outboard on the back.

Suggestion not Criticism is the only way in my book.

 

[David_Jersey]

IMO new boat owners need:-

A large roll of Cotton Wool. and a jug of superiority complex (supplied free on YBW.com ).

Of course OP could have simply said "that's great!, if you need a hand getting started or any advice / ideas then give me a shout" and then entertained them with a couple of the f#ck ups you've done

 

[TamarMike]

A young "know it all" lad in our local pub recently bought a dinghy and outboard (at a car boat sale I think) for sea angling. While he had at least got a LJ he resented any suggestion that the brilliant little outboard he has acquired could let him down so I then at least persuaded him to get an anchor with a long rode (mainly, I told him, so he could lie comfortably head to sea while fishing) and to programme the Coastguards no. into his mobile so if in doubt he can speak to them without going through 999 or 112.

 

[Sans Bateau]

I don't think it right to be to critical of the OP, its a good point he raises, his ability to convey a message may be in question though, as it does come across a bit blunt.

In response to the title of the thread, I suspect it is ignorance.

This is a very difficult situation. "I'm going to buy a car and start driving", everyone knows you have to pass a test, get the car licenced etc etc. However, with a boat, not only is there no need to comply with any regulation (there is no regulation), but until you get started and talk to others, without some research, read some mags etc, how else can you know what is right?

Hopefully, the OP will have given some helpful advice. Whilst we currently have no regulation, every boat that goes to sea ill-prepared (and I say ill-prepared, in seaworthiness and ability of the skipper) and then has to call for help is providing reason for that regulation to be brought in.

I think I can safely say that nearly every weekend that we are afloat, somewhere in radio range the CG asks for assistance to tow a small day boat to safety because of engine problems. OK this could just be coincidence, but the description of the boat type always sounds similar.

Good luck to those new to boating, its up to us who have been at it a few years to try and offer help. But really what would any of us say faced with the same situation as the OP? I'm not sure what I'd say, if someone has just acquired a boat but doesn't have the funds for insurance, lifejackets etc. We do though have a duty to try and guide people in what is right.

 

[Sans Bateau]

A young "know it all" lad in our local pub recently bought a dinghy and outboard (at a car boat sale I think) for sea angling. While he had at least got a LJ he resented any suggestion that the brilliant little outboard he has acquired could let him down so I then at least persuaded him to get an anchor with a long rode (mainly, I told him, so he could lie comfortably head to sea while fishing) and to programme the Coastguards no. into his mobile so if in doubt he can speak to them without going through 999 or 112.

Yes, you seem to see a fair amount of this in Chi harbour, the fishing gear and cans of beer far more important than the boat or equipment, and if you can get a few mates along, so much the better.

 

[Searush]

"You don't know what you don't know, until you know it"

Think about it. It is so easy to think you are in control, when in fact, you are simply unaware of the problem(s). Fortunately, there seem to be Guardian Angels that look after us while novices. Or it seems like that as only the lucky will survive.

 

[PetiteFleur]

You have to be diplomatic; as we were coming into the Deben this Sunday and there was a small white & red speedboat whizzing around with 3 blokes, no LJ's and a small child(with LJ). After we had moored and whilst taking our guests ashore, I noticed they had dropped an anchor in the middle of the moorings, had the engine cover off and were obviously having problems. When I returned for SWMBO they were still there so I went alongside and asked them if they wanted any help. Turned out they were 3 East Europeans with limited English so after waiting while they replaced the plugs and tried starting I offered to tow them to the hard. They accepted and I towed them the short distance to the hard. I noticed they did not have any backup motor, oars or paddles. I think they were quite pleased for the tow. I did not think to give them a lecture as I suspect they would not have understood.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

The only arrogance I see here is yours in thinking you have the right to interrogate anyone - I think your victim should be applauded for not telling you to p*ss off long before - I know I would have!

There is an acceptable way of talking to someone and - though I hope your version is overly concise - it looks to me like you have overstepped the bounds.

And what ABOUT harbour dues??? where does that come into your "self-assembly safety soapbox"?

It all sounded patronising and self-righteous.

What an appalling response !

Bad manners at it's worst.

A reasonable subject for a discussion that only asks for debate.

I'm afraid it is people like you put off people starting subjects.

Is there any chance that you may wish to apologize to this poster ?

 

[mikemonty]

What an appalling response !
Is there any chance that you may wish to apologize to this poster ?

Nope!

I don't think you are qualified to step in as judge/arbitrator when your opinion is worth no more or less than mine.

Firstly, the OP came on this forum and invited us to discuss - so I did.

Secondly, as I posted before, I suggest he would be ashamed to show his victim his original post - what does that say about his attitude to them?

Thirdly I object to anyone thinking they have the authority to quiz and judge others on the basis of an office "conversation".

Finally, his "How many more accidents waiting to happen are out there" presumes too far and sounds arrogant in itself - how does he know he won't be in the next accident that ACTUALLY happens?

If the OP had described his encounter as more of a discussion and less than an unsolicited safety briefing I might be more sympathetic and frankly wouldn't have even responded to such a non-event. But the only notable aspect of the post was that it had an air of superiority about it that said "We're clever - discuss"
THATS what puts ME off forums.

 

[bobgoode]

I'm astonished that they have been allowed a berth in a harbour without producing a 3rd Party Insurance cert. I have always been required to produce one. Perhaps it's only because I look like a duffer? Its it only me?

I always believe we have a duty to encourage & advise others, They don't have to listen of course, but at least I have tried to help. I wouldn't walk past an injured man, why ignore an ignorant one if you can help. Don't you have an old lifejacket or B/Aid that you don't need any more? Even a kapok one is better than nowt - just make sure they know its limitations.

Often marinas or harbour will NOT ask to see the proof of insurance as this could be construed as approving the policy. They usually settle for asking you to sign to the effect that you carry insurance and so avoid this,

 

[Observer]

Often marinas or harbour will NOT ask to see the proof of insurance as this could be construed as approving the policy. They usually settle for asking you to sign to the effect that you carry insurance and so avoid this,

More likely it's the simple practicalities of due diligence. A marina operator/harbour authority will (almost certainly) carry insurance for loss or damage to their property caused by visiting vessels and to other people's property for which they may be liable. As a term of that policy, the owner is (probably) required to 'require' visiting vessels to carry third party insurance and this requirement will appear in the marina/harbour byelaws/rules. It would be impracticable for a operator/owner to conduct sufficient due diligence to be sure that all visitors are actually insured (even a certificate is not "proof") so the 'tick in the box' that satisfies the requirements of the owner's insurance terms will be a record of the name of the visitor's insurer. The level of detail will obviously vary from place to place according to the detailed terms of the owner's insurance. Also, some owners may take the view that the requirement in their byelaws/rules is sufficient, whilst others will (or will be required to) take the additional step of collecting names of insurers, or possibly more.

 

[snowleopard]

Non-verbal communication

This thread really shows up the problems of trying to communicate using only the written word. People can read entirely different things into a post and get pretty hot under the collar as a result. A simple sentence like 'have you got lifejackets?' could, when spoken, sound aggressive or helpful depending on body language and tone of voice but those nuances are missing from a forum post.

I very much doubt the OP approached the newbie in an arrogant and hectoring tone (he'd probably have reported a four-letter reply or a smack in the mouth if he had). Let's not read that sort of attitude into his post then castigate him for what our imaginations have supplied.

 

[dam747iam]

post may have sounded a bit blunt but that was not how i intended it to look!

 

[Sans Bateau]

This thread really shows up the problems of trying to communicate using only the written word. People can read entirely different things into a post and get pretty hot under the collar as a result. A simple sentence like 'have you got lifejackets?' could, when spoken, sound aggressive or helpful depending on body language and tone of voice but those nuances are missing from a forum post.

I very much doubt the OP approached the newbie in an arrogant and hectoring tone (he'd probably have reported a four-letter reply or a smack in the mouth if he had). Let's not read that sort of attitude into his post then castigate him for what our imaginations have supplied.

Well said.