ignorance or arogance?

[LONG_KEELER]

Nope!

I don't think you are qualified to step in as judge/arbitrator when your opinion is worth no more or less than mine.

Firstly, the OP came on this forum and invited us to discuss - so I did.

Secondly, as I posted before, I suggest he would be ashamed to show his victim his original post - what does that say about his attitude to them?

Thirdly I object to anyone thinking they have the authority to quiz and judge others on the basis of an office "conversation".

Finally, his "How many more accidents waiting to happen are out there" presumes too far and sounds arrogant in itself - how does he know he won't be in the next accident that ACTUALLY happens?

If the OP had described his encounter as more of a discussion and less than an unsolicited safety briefing I might be more sympathetic and frankly wouldn't have even responded to such a non-event. But the only notable aspect of the post was that it had an air of superiority about it that said "We're clever - discuss"
THATS what puts ME off forums.

I doubt very much if this or other forums are your real problem. But I think you know that deep down don't you ?

When we change the rest of the world changes. Not the other way round.

I, and I'm sure others will pray that you find peace.

 

[Captain Coochie]

Quite a funny thread for me because when i finished this project

And asked what i needed to have a day out at the coast i got very few replies . In fact the replies i got where from people that use the lounge rather than the " real boaters "

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I, and I'm sure others will pray that you find peace.

I think Mikemonty is spot on. The original post was blatantly point scoring at a newbie. If you read it and came to the conclusion that the OP had the slightest intention of helping rather than having a cheap pop you need to read it again.

 

[Searush]

Often marinas or harbour will NOT ask to see the proof of insurance as this could be construed as approving the policy. They usually settle for asking you to sign to the effect that you carry insurance and so avoid this,

At Conway, I was required to submit a valid cover note/ policy schedule in order to pay my mooring fees for the year. I have since moved to Caernarfon where there do not seem to be any such checks.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I think Mikemonty is spot on. The original post was blatantly point scoring at a newbie. If you read it and came to the conclusion that the OP had the slightest intention of helping rather than having a cheap pop you need to read it again.

I'm afraid Toad that you and Monty are in the same camp.

A number of your own posts are unnecessarily aggressive, lack respect and you both have a devout belief that you are absolutely right . And, where possible, lace it up with some nastiness directed to the originator.

You even tell me to reread again, and therefore must come to the obvious agreement of yourself. What incredible arrogance you have.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What incredible arrogance you have.

There's a lot of it about!


PS: I've just had a skim read up. In this thread at least your posts typically attack the individual. Monty and my posts typically attack the opinion. Apart from being rather rude, attacking the individual is pretty poor debating tactics - when you resort to the ad hominem abusive people start to wonder if your case is valid. For instance, reading the first post here doesn't really support the 'helpful OP' case. I think you realise that so you have to go in for personal attacks as a distraction.

 

[mikemonty]

I doubt very much if this or other forums are your real problem. But I think you know that deep down don't you ?

When we change the rest of the world changes. Not the other way round.

I, and I'm sure others will pray that you find peace.

Sorry Long Keeler - no blinding flash of clarity here - scales have NOT fallen from my eyes.

Statement one:-
I have no idea where the "deep insight" into my "problem" you clain here came from, and the ridiculous assumption of my subconcious agreement - though I've seen it as a puerile argumentative gambit before - has no place in reasoned debate.

Statement two:-
Err... well...

Statement three:-
I thank you for your concern but I assure you I'm perfectly well balanced and at peace with myself and those around me.

Respect. Something you seem to hold in regard and yet cannot see the lack of respect that is exhibited by the OP towards his subject matter.
At least I had the honesty (relatively! it is of course, still an anonymous bulletin board) to say directly to MY subject what I thought. The OP didn't even give his subject the options of labels other than the "arrogant" or "ignorant" OR the chance to plead their case.

Edit - And finally - the signature I've been using for some considerable time now expresses (I hope) my understanding of the value of my own opinion.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

This thread really shows up the problems of trying to communicate using only the written word. People can read entirely different things into a post and get pretty hot under the collar as a result. A simple sentence like 'have you got lifejackets?' could, when spoken, sound aggressive or helpful depending on body language and tone of voice but those nuances are missing from a forum post.

I very much doubt the OP approached the newbie in an arrogant and hectoring tone (he'd probably have reported a four-letter reply or a smack in the mouth if he had). Let's not read that sort of attitude into his post then castigate him for what our imaginations have supplied.

It's really annoying when people like you talk so much about common sense and decency.!!

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Edit - And finally - the signature I've been using for some considerable time now expresses (I hope) my understanding of the value of my own opinion.

Opinions are like ass holes - everybody has got one and no two are the same.

 

[OGITD]

Me-too!

"Perhaps it's only because I look like a duffer? Is it only me?"

No Searush....it's most definitely me-too!

On the point of helping someone less well informed....there will have been numerous occasions where you have offered sound advise, only to have it completely ignored....even after it being requested by said individuals.

The time when poor judgement (I'm being polite here) tends to upset....is when their actions, or not, create a safety issue for both other people and their equipment who are! safe on the water.

 

[ChattingLil]

oh I feel sympathatic to the OP too.

ie - similar situation to the OP:

my boss (who I adore - so there's no sour grapes here) has owned a mobo for over 25 years. he never takes it out of the river - uses it for water-skiing and leisurely entertainment. A few weeks ago he told me he was planning on going up the Orwell for the weekend. The first time he'd ever been to sea. End of story - didn't ask any more.

Following week he comes in to the office completely sun-burnt and exhausted. Tells me that he thinks he should get an updated chart because he came out the river, opened up and headed out to sea to be suprised by the wind farm that jumped out at him. "How long has that been there?"

He showed me his chart and thought it was hilarious that it didn't have the farm on it. The chart was dated 1986. I asked why he was so burnt. He'd run out of petrol and had to wait ages before hailing a passing mobo for some spare petrol. I asked him how come he'd run out? He'd gone all the way round the wind farm because he lost his bearings and thought if he kept turning left it would come right in the end. I then asked him how he'd misjudged his fuel so badly and he said he thought it was only x miles - when I checked the chart, it was least double what he'd thought. As he watched me check the chart he asked - in amazement - how do you know that? Had no idea how to use dividers or what they were for. He has a radio, but has not done a course. Has never had any training, practical or otherwise.

I then asked him about navigation and he said that since he's always stayed in the river it wasn't necessary, and on the odd occasion he put his nose out to see the seals he just follows 'the dotted line back' (on his chart plotter).

As some of you will know, I am no ace yachtsman and still on a steep learning curve myself and am in no position to judge or lecture others, but even I was shocked at his lack of ability and preparation and it did occur to me that he was a hazard - in the least because if the coastguard were out getting him then they wouldn't be available to someone else...

I think it's worthy of some of the discussion here. Of course, you have to be careful not to be patronising or otherwise, but I don't think there's anything wrong with asking if someone is ready for what they tell you they are taking on. I've always been grateful to hear the opinions of experienced people. (it's why I read this forum every day!).

 

[Observer]

..<stuff>..

The most effective learning comes from getting things wrong at a cost (financial, convenience, even injury). Your boss made a mistake. It didn't have serious consequences, just some inconvenience, but there was a cost. You helped show him what the mistake was and how easily it could have been avoided. From the way you describe it, you did it sensitively and without making him feel too defensive. So - well done. You may be the catalyst for him to enrol for an RYA course.

Shortly after I bought my first boat, I made a mistake, a navigation error, through ignorance, that could have had serious consequences. Knowledge of that prompted me to do an RYA course. I still make mistakes, sometimes stupid ones and sometimes expensive ones, but I try to learn from them.

 

[snowleopard]

There are various reasons for not offering advice. I suspect the chief one is the reason men tend not to ask for directions - fear of an unfavourable response. Take a typical case anyone might come across - you are standing near a slipway and someone is launching a powerboat. He's making a pig's ear of it and there are obviously no lifejackets in sight, no paddle or reserve engine, no other safety gear. The guy has a shaved head and tattoos. Do you offer him safety advice? Call me prejudiced if you like but I'd keep quiet rather than risk getting a mouthfull of abuse.

In fact I doubt I'd try to advise any stranger for the same reason. If it were a friend I might say something like 'Have you got lifejackets or would you like to borrow some of mine till you get fixed up?'

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Take a typical case anyone might come across - you are standing near a slipway and someone is launching a powerboat. He's making a pig's ear of it and there are obviously no lifejackets in sight, no paddle or reserve engine, no other safety gear. The guy has a shaved head and tattoos. Do you offer him safety advice? Call me prejudiced if you like but I'd keep quiet rather than risk getting a mouthfull of abuse.

Surely this comes down to the quality of the unsolicited advice?

If you advised him where he could find £10,000 hidden you would expect a friendly reaction. In fact you feel your advice would be so useless and patronising that it will cause a reaction of a mouthful of abuse.

Of all the forms of assistance advice is the least useful. Of all the forms of advise unsolicited advice from someone you don't respect about something simple[1] is overwhelmingly the least useful. As the Spanish say - “Don’t give advice, give money.”

In my experience, unsolicited advise is almost always an attempt[2] by the "adviser" to articulate the message that the "advisee" is an idiot but the "adviser" is wise.

[1] Like sailing.
[2] Usually from a rather elderly person who started sailing late in life.

 

[Searush]

Opinions are like ass holes - everybody has got one and no two are the same.

NOW, you've got me thinking. I have always assumed that everybody had an identical *******. But I have to admit I have never studied the subject as you obviously have, so I bow to your superior knowledge.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that opportunity!

BTW, the sprayhood frame fitted a treat thanks, & Sea Rush should be getting her new conservatory any time now.