"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" - Charles Darwin

[Flying Penguin]

Perhaps a poor school then, where was it?

Solent based, but as there was little wind for much of the course I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt (and anonymity). Have used them other times and been very satisfied.

 

[snowleopard]

The latest one, and this is not to decry the poster in any way - he has to learn, is from the newly awarded DS married to a CC who asks how to tack. Someone is renting him a 33' boat on the basis of his "course completion" but the syllabus doesn't seem to have covered how to sail! All the replies are helpful in the extreme, and no-one seems to find it at all incongruous.

Then there is the post complaining about the single-hander in the Helford. Ignoring whether he was wise or not to squeeze through such crowded waters under sail, there were several responses from those who claimed vast experience that he would have had more control with only one sail.

As has been pointed out already, the first poster was asking for advice on making things simple when short handed. It was definitely not that he didn't know how to tack.

In the second instance a singlehander might well have more control under main only when short tacking rather than losing sight of his surroundings while winching headsail sheets. You wouldn't accuse a Laser sailor of being less in control because he doesn't have a headsail. Some boats don't handle well under main alone but it's a perfectly viable rig on most modern boats. On my own boat the first reef is to furl the jib. When it comes to accusing other posters of incompetence this sounds like pot and kettle to me.

 

[NealB]

If you didn't, you'd have booked the comp crew course and would have been taught it

I did RYA courses many years ago, so they could well have changed massively by now, though I don't think so from what I see and hear.

The cruiser courses seem to focus on: navigation, pilotage, colregs, handling at close quarters under power, a few knots...very little emphasis on sailing itself.

Sailing and wind awareness are far better learnt on a dinghy course, or by doing some racing, in my view.

 

[Sgeir]

I suppose it depends upon who's doing the teaching. I did DS (Practical) with Donal Boyle when he was at the national watersports centre in Cumbrae in '99. He was first class. I'd been sailing for a couple of years before that, but I certainly learned a lot about wind awareness and boat handling from him.

We had good winds and over the five days had 201 miles of sailing from Largs, out to Millport, Loch Ranza, Campbeltown, Ballycastle, Rathlin, Ailsa Craig, Troon, Lamlash, Rothesay, and then back to Largs.

We also did 7 night hours as part of it. As a newbie at the time I certainly got a lot from it.

 

[awol]

When it comes to accusing other posters of incompetence this sounds like pot and kettle to me.

I make no claims of competence but I do tend to read what was written. Others have managed to understand my comments on the DS/CC post which were not a criticism of the poster. As for the singlehander - you make a valid point that his view may be restricted, that is unless he takes the bother to actually look, but as far as his ability to control the position of the boat is concerned, the combination of main and headsail is superior to either one singly. As for Lasers, they are markedly less manoeuvrable at low speed than similar sized dinghies with jibs.

I note that you sail a catamaran and I certainly, from a very limited experience, would not attempt the same close quarter moves in that as I would in a well kent monohull, nor would I presume to criticise your handling of her. I am sure you know your boat well and have learned from experience the best way to shorten sail.

 

[Fantasie 19]

I've said it before on these forums and I suppose I'll say it again. Comp Crew, Day Skipper, and Coastal Skipper are NOT qualifications, they are certificates of completion on the course.

Couldn't agree more - I did Day Skipper Theory over the winter and there is nothing in the course that will teach you how to sail, it's primarily about how to identify markers, and simple plotting and charting.... which was exactly what it said on the tin.....

I think all three of the above assume you've already know roughly how to sail - the courses just seek to build on that basic premise.

 

[xxyyzz]

Couldn't agree more - I did Day Skipper Theory over the winter and there is nothing in the course that will teach you how to sail(...)

The practical part is 5 days in a sailing boat though, must give you a rough grasp of the basics surely?

Regardless of the intricacies endlessly detailed on here, it is a pretty easy thing to do.

 

[Woodlouse]

Wind awareness doesn't come easily to some people. Dinghies are of course the best way to learn it and one of my Yachtmaster instructors reckoned that on big boats you'd need 10,000 miles under your belt to learn it to the same extent that a merely competent dinghy sailor might. A CC course might teach you the basics but you cannot learn it in a week.

Working on yachts I've come across people with 70,000+ sea miles who still struggle to tell where the wind is coming from and completely fail to understand the concept of apparent wind moving forwards despite sailing down wind.

 

[awol]

The practical part is 5 days in a sailing boat though, must give you a rough grasp of the basics surely?

Regardless of the intricacies endlessly detailed on here, it is a pretty easy thing to do.

I hope your confidence is not indicative of the truth of the title to this thread or to the accuracy of Bertrand Russell's observation.

 

[Flying Penguin]

I hope your confidence is not indicative of the truth of the title to this thread or to the accuracy of Bertrand Russell's observation.

There is "just getting from A - B" and "getting from A - B safely and efficiently"

Me, I'm probably nearer the former, but aiming for the latter, but the basic mechanics are not exactly rocket science, although it can be missed as it's not a key focus of the main RYA courses.

I had no prior sailing experience and learned by trial, error and reading a lot. I still have heaps to learn.

 

[Sgeir]

Further to my above post, may I add two things;

1. In the context of people claiming that there was no sailing content to the DS course, by definition there wouldn't be any in the Theory course, hence my assumption that the poster(s) meant Practical DS. I'd still like to know why/how people couldn't learn to sail on a DS (P) course;

2. Re wind awareness, since doing my DS(P), I have enjoyed the fine company of Webcraft, Claymore, Silkie, JohnBuch, Para Handy, Jimi, DaveS and other Forumites of this Parish too numerous to mention. Having socialised with them, I have found that it's generally best to stay to the windward of one or two of them.

 

[Babylon]

My conclusion is that there are a lot of sailing boats out there being driven by people who don't know how to sail but don't know they don't know - as Bertrand Russell put it "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision".

As for me, I am often scared by how little I know, how close I get to making stupid mistakes, and how much information I need before making decisions, reaching conclusions, or condemning someone's actions. According to Dunning-Kruger that makes me highly competent, but somehow I doubt it!

Most of us on here have at least a fair bit of sailing experience, have read a few books, peruse the mags from time to time, hone ourselves on questions thrown up in these fora, and have done a range of training course - from a Start Sailing weekend through to YM Ocean. But that is only half the story.

When we go out as skippers, however, we do so reliant completely on our own disparate personalities - from the cautious and questioning types, to the 'chance-yer-arm' characters.

Tom Cunliffe, by his own admission, was a wild lad whose father pushed him off in a boat so he could learn to learn from his own mistakes - and this, coupled with his inimitable personality, eventually made him the teacher and writer he became.

As an inexperienced teenager, I myself nearly drowned losing my windsurfer rig some distance off Hayling Island in viscious wind-over-tide conditions (not that I understood what it was at the time!). When, twenty years later, I decided to learn to sail, I swore that I would do it by the book, doing most of the courses and reading almost every available book on sailing, yachts, ships and the sea. I've proceeded by building each block of basic learning and experience on the previous block, interspersed with pushing myself - and testing my mettle - at appropriate junctures. I know where I'm still weak (and fearful), and know that I don't yet have the years and miles to actually call myself experienced. But its got easier, less fraught, and more enjoyable as each season succeeds the last.

On the other hand, I have a pal at the club who's never done any training, never reads anything, and just goes out there in his cruiser-racer, breaks things, and has a whale of a time.

Vive la difference!

 

[mcframe]

Awol - I completely agree with you about those that get a ticket and buy/ charter a boat with limited experience - they potentially endanger themselves and others. I'll probably fall into that bracket eventually because I have repeated the same umpteen years of sailing the same waters with only a handful of forays to differnet places on differnet boats, but we all have to start somewhere.

I've done my bit to help - I've taken *two* Clipper crew (for next year's transpac leg) out on my 27' boat (on separate occasions) to do two-handed kite/chute work, picking up moorings, rafting at Bembridge and all that stuff they won't do on their 6,500 mile "sail" ;->

 

[Seajet]

I did my YM course a while ago; the really striking thing, and this was with a brilliant school whose skippers I am not fit to lick the boots of, they all relied on a large crew - as on board the 33 & 42' boats - for manouvering, navigation, crew rest etc.

I happened to have done a lot more hands on sailing & boat ownership than the other students, & noticed a pattern emerging when doing MOB drill.

I asked a chum on the course " what would you do if I went over the side now ? "

" well, I'd put her on a reach, get Clive to keep an eye on you..."

my reply; " I'd much rather you threw me the bloody lifering to start with ! "

For the exam I was warned ' don't let on you only sail with your fiancee, or the examiner will make you do the MOB singlehanded '.

I thought it was a fair test, and doing it myself minimised communication snags, so did do it myself.

If there's one big fault I see with sailing schools, it's that they don't reflect the normal knackered husband / nervous wife crew,( don't mean to be sexist, generalising ) which is a whole different ball game.

Edit to add; hopefully the day I stop learning will be the day they pry my dead hand from the tiller - if any sailor says he knows everything, smile politely and back slowly towards the nearest exit.

 

[puddock]

Originally Posted by awol View Post
The latest one, and this is not to decry the poster in any way - he has to learn, is from the newly awarded DS married to a CC who asks how to tack. Someone is renting him a 33' boat on the basis of his "course completion" but the syllabus doesn't seem to have covered how to sail! All the replies are helpful in the extreme, and no-one seems to find it at all incongruous.

I was in a similar (worse!) situation. I bought my first boat immediately after doing my CC - in fact it was the school boat that I bought ! (and it was the first time I'd sailed ) Not the route I'd take if I were to sit dwn and think about it logically...
I then found myself in the position of being responsible for a Storm 33 and the safety of not only those onboard but those within a pretty large radius too !
However, armed to the teeth with my 5 days sailing experience and my crews 0 days experience, we took things slowly, thought things through well in advance and managed not to cause any damage to anyone or anything. daysails soon turned to weekend cruises and then weeklong cruises, admittedly in the sheltered waters of the West Coast of Scotland. Books, conversations with other skippers and the replies to my questions posted on this forum helped greatly, though as ever, putting theory to practice is where experience is gained.
Since then, I have moved over to the North East of Scotland and I have been cruising single handed there. Each time I set foot on the boat, I learn or observe something new. It's getting the hands on, practical experience that counts - different conditions, dealing with breakdowns, failures and problems, entering new harbours (stone walls with inherent swell or pontoon berths).
I deliberately never used electronic navigation for my first 3 years - this year is my first with it. If I lose it, it's not going to be the end of the world.
I work on and service my engine myself - I'm no marine engineer but I'm pretty sure I'd be able to diagnose most common ailments and figure out how to ni--er rig something to get me home.

At the end of the day, what I am trying to say is that NONE of us were born mariners. We have ALL had to learn the ropes one way or another. The fact that the OP has approached those with knowledge (??) is admirable in my opinion.

 

[Blueboatman]

What a beautifully written post by AWOL.

At 20 we know it all. At 40 I never realised how little....

Allowing for the imperfect nature of Fora Qs and As, the Fred drift and ritual abuse by, say, the 5th page....it worries me that people are asking favours( quick advice) from this variable source and I am not at all convinced that any books have been consulted first.
I would include, in no particular order, how to reef downwind in my new 45 footer, short cuts in wind over tide round headlands, rediculously ambitious itineraries for tired weekend sailors, fitting bowthrusters instead of learning parking first of all, autopilots for long distance or windvanes, toolkit or Iridium etc etc ( ok I make the last one up, sorta, to illustrate a point).

Watching some peeps manoeuvre I realise they are all panic and engine revs but little concept of what the tide and wind are actually doing so they are fighting rather than using these mooring aids!
Some bright spark with the humour of a Tom Cunliffe will no doubt be offering courses that address thinking on yer feet and using what is available..

Charles Darwin, if a yotty, might well have larfed that by the end of the season we are all actually quite good, then have to start again next April, thats evolution folks!

 

[snowleopard]

all panic and engine revs

Nice line.

And a good way of measuring your progress.

 

[LADY B]

hopefully the day I stop learning will be the day they pry my dead hand from the tiller - if any sailor says he knows everything, smile politely and back slowly towards the nearest exit.

+1

 

[rotrax]

I feel I am losing my grip on reality or perhaps I have just got too old to appreciate the changes in the world. A few recent posts have made me realise that my responses are not those of the majority.

The latest one, and this is not to decry the poster in any way - he has to learn, is from the newly awarded DS married to a CC who asks how to tack. Someone is renting him a 33' boat on the basis of his "course completion" but the syllabus doesn't seem to have covered how to sail! All the replies are helpful in the extreme, and no-one seems to find it at all incongruous.

Then there is the post complaining about the single-hander in the Helford. Ignoring whether he was wise or not to squeeze through such crowded waters under sail, there were several responses from those who claimed vast experience that he would have had more control with only one sail.

The skipper of the yacht that snagged on the tanker anchor was almost universally (and vehemently) condemned as a complete idiot for putting race winning above common sense. I can remember another Corby which managed to hit a solid object (the Kingdom of Fife) and wrapped its spinnaker round a chimney pot. It wasn't racing at the time but an unlikely series of events/snags occurred which overcame a very experienced and skillful crew. Face value was they were at fault, but retrospect was, there but for the grace of god ...... However, except for the odd exception, the fora "know" that the Solent collision was caused entirely by competitive stupidity and are baying for the skipper's head.

My conclusion is that there are a lot of sailing boats out there being driven by people who don't know how to sail but don't know they don't know - as Bertrand Russell put it "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision". They may have umpteen years of experience but I suspect that it is based on one year's experience repeated umpteen times and consists of motoring in and out of a marina, hoisting sails for a bit and moaning about the cost of berthing, anchoring, etc.. They aren't members of a club, they never race - except perhaps Round an Island, and they have no way of knowing how little they know.

As for me, I am often scared by how little I know, how close I get to making stupid mistakes, and how much information I need before making decisions, reaching conclusions, or condemning someone's actions. According to Dunning-Kruger that makes me highly competent, but somehow I doubt it!

TRUE KNOWLEDGE IS THE PRODUCT OF DIRECT EXPERIENCE. From Mao's red book. Right on the money I think.

 

[Wansworth]

Chay Blyth must be the best illustration of this question,although he probably applied knowledge from other areas of his life actually sailing his kids stuff its all the other bits that take learning and remembering..Joshua Slocum is reported to have said something to the efect that the sea was for sailing and dontfoget what you have learnt