"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" - Charles Darwin

awol

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" - Charles Darwin

I feel I am losing my grip on reality or perhaps I have just got too old to appreciate the changes in the world. A few recent posts have made me realise that my responses are not those of the majority.

The latest one, and this is not to decry the poster in any way - he has to learn, is from the newly awarded DS married to a CC who asks how to tack. Someone is renting him a 33' boat on the basis of his "course completion" but the syllabus doesn't seem to have covered how to sail! All the replies are helpful in the extreme, and no-one seems to find it at all incongruous.

Then there is the post complaining about the single-hander in the Helford. Ignoring whether he was wise or not to squeeze through such crowded waters under sail, there were several responses from those who claimed vast experience that he would have had more control with only one sail.

The skipper of the yacht that snagged on the tanker anchor was almost universally (and vehemently) condemned as a complete idiot for putting race winning above common sense. I can remember another Corby which managed to hit a solid object (the Kingdom of Fife) and wrapped its spinnaker round a chimney pot. It wasn't racing at the time but an unlikely series of events/snags occurred which overcame a very experienced and skillful crew. Face value was they were at fault, but retrospect was, there but for the grace of god ...... However, except for the odd exception, the fora "know" that the Solent collision was caused entirely by competitive stupidity and are baying for the skipper's head.

My conclusion is that there are a lot of sailing boats out there being driven by people who don't know how to sail but don't know they don't know - as Bertrand Russell put it "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision". They may have umpteen years of experience but I suspect that it is based on one year's experience repeated umpteen times and consists of motoring in and out of a marina, hoisting sails for a bit and moaning about the cost of berthing, anchoring, etc.. They aren't members of a club, they never race - except perhaps Round an Island, and they have no way of knowing how little they know.

As for me, I am often scared by how little I know, how close I get to making stupid mistakes, and how much information I need before making decisions, reaching conclusions, or condemning someone's actions. According to Dunning-Kruger that makes me highly competent, but somehow I doubt it!
 
I agree, a few years ago I felt myself slipping into a confident manner, this bit my in the bum one day when I least expected it whilst taking out a lot of inexperienced colleagues from work.

That snapped my attitude very quickly back to having a lot to learn.

And I still am!
 
Don't worry - YM editorial took one of my posts from here and shuved it in the mag - edited so much that (IMO) it doesn't reflect the meaning of the original post.


Then you get the "help please" posts - everyone dives in on and a lot of good advice - with the odd one or two saying "get a pro in" ... the OP goes off and fixes it themselves then explicitly thanks the "get a pro in" poster ... makes you wonder why we bother sometimes!
 
Awol - I completely agree with you about those that get a ticket and buy/ charter a boat with limited experience - they potentially endanger themselves and others. I'll probably fall into that bracket eventually because I have repeated the same umpteen years of sailing the same waters with only a handful of forays to differnet places on differnet boats, but we all have to start somewhere. I fervently hope I won't come to grief, but these things can happen. I think the general consensus that "the more you learn the less you find you know" approach is the right one to take, but there will always be the numpties, and we should help those that ask whenever we can.

The poster asking about advice re tacking etc displays backbone for posting about his concerns: he's wanting to make the experieince as pleasurable as possible for his missus (ahem!) and to minimise mistakes. Perhaps these should have been covered in the DS syllabus, BUT, can the DS cover all aspects in a week? I think not. Seamanship is built via experience, as well as by tuition, and therefore he is right to gain as much information as possible before casting off. IMO it doesnI for one won't admonish anyone from asking daft laddie questions - I do it all the time. I couldn't have built my extension without asking things of people that know more than me. If you don't ask, you'll have a harder/ more expensive/ slower time learning.

As for folk that should know better, well, they bloody well should know better! Maybe certain people are naturally inclined towards tending to cut it fine, with the inevtiable consequences occurring occasionally. I suspect the Corby you mentioned liked to cut things fine from time to time, as I witnessed when I saw one of the crew dangling from the end of the boom when they tried to get out of the marina one Weds night at 6.30 - landing in the putty is something that happens, but it shouldn't have if it's your home marina. The demise of that boat was, from my very limited knowledge, the result of a series of unfortunate events. Whether they could have been avoided is beyond my ken.

But one should always set oneself up for success, whether it be tacking or whatever, and I believe that the forum should share their own tricks and tips without too much judgment, particularly on newbies, so that they can. We were all there once.

Perhaps it's best summed up by Forrest Gump: "There's no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer."
 
The latest one, and this is not to decry the poster in any way - he has to learn, is from the newly awarded DS married to a CC who asks how to tack. Someone is renting him a 33' boat on the basis of his "course completion" but the syllabus doesn't seem to have covered how to sail! All the replies are helpful in the extreme, and no-one seems to find it at all incongruous.
They didn't say they couldn't sail, they were asking advice for sailing shorthanded. This is not taught on the course since there are usually 5 aboard and it's not a requirement.
Then there is the post complaining about the single-hander in the Helford. Ignoring whether he was wise or not to squeeze through such crowded waters under sail, there were several responses from those who claimed vast experience that he would have had more control with only one sail.
I'd say that one was just differing opinions, nobody was really right. The sailor in question may have known how to handle the boat, but that alarmed others who may not have the same level of experience. I get this on the roads all the time when people tailgate me - they think they are safe, I disagree.
The skipper of the yacht that snagged on the tanker anchor was almost universally (and vehemently) condemned as a complete idiot for putting race winning above common sense. I can remember another Corby which managed to hit a solid object (the Kingdom of Fife) and wrapped its spinnaker round a chimney pot. It wasn't racing at the time but an unlikely series of events/snags occurred which overcame a very experienced and skillful crew. Face value was they were at fault, but retrospect was, there but for the grace of god ...... However, except for the odd exception, the fora "know" that the Solent collision was caused entirely by competitive stupidity and are baying for the skipper's head.
Now that I've seen the tracks in the mag, I would say this was just really unfortunate. The collision seems to have been right on the turn so the skipper probably misjudged either thinking it would turn faster or slower.
My conclusion is that there are a lot of sailing boats out there being driven by people who don't know how to sail but don't know they don't know - as Bertrand Russell put it "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision". They may have umpteen years of experience but I suspect that it is based on one year's experience repeated umpteen times and consists of motoring in and out of a marina, hoisting sails for a bit and moaning about the cost of berthing, anchoring, etc.. They aren't members of a club, they never race - except perhaps Round an Island, and they have no way of knowing how little they know.
Of course, that's the joy of sailing. It's a big enough place that we can all have a go with very little consequence. Most of the people who only have experience motoring in and out of the marina will only ever motor in and out of marinas. As the experience grows then maybe they will try anchoring or mooring buoys. Believe me, sailing in the Solent I see fewer people making mistakes than I do at work from people who are "qualified" to do what they are doing.
 
And while we're on the subject, where's Dylan today with his usual "learn by doing" comments :)
 
I agree, a few years ago I felt myself slipping into a confident manner, this bit my in the bum one day when I least expected it whilst taking out a lot of inexperienced colleagues from work.

That snapped my attitude very quickly back to having a lot to learn.

And I still am!

....happens to me every time I go out... :o

....cycle start, last sailing session went very well very pleased with myself, "this session will be brilliant as I'm not a bad sailor after all", leave mooring, something happens *, get back to mooring thinking "yee gods I have a lot to learn", repeat cycle....

* last time out I clumped a starboard marker pole on the way back - was standing the wrong side of the boom, with the boom at head height I didn't see it...... no harm done but it brings you back down to earth... :D
 
I am struggling to disagree with Awol but dammit I can't find a single flaw. I have thought for sometime that the RYA scheme is somewhat flawed. I regularly come across people overestimating their competence; people badged as competent crew who seem quite unable to adapt to a different boat from the one they did their course on, and Day Skippers with poor wind awareness for example. Sometimes people who have learned by doing have a bit more awareness of the gaps in their own knowledge; I just read something on another thread where the poster freely admitted to never ever having put his boat alongside a pontoon. Contrast that with a boat owner I know, an excellent chap and clearly developing competence, who having had his own boat for 2 years now following acquisition of DS status, anchored her for the first time a month or two ago.....
 
I regularly come across people overestimating their competence; people badged as competent crew who seem quite unable to adapt to a different boat from the one they did their course on, and Day Skippers with poor wind awareness for example.

Flexibility is also a skill that is acquired through experience, remember that someone just post CC may have only been on one or two types of boats in their life. Most people initially learn by rote, they can do the task but only if it is set up the way they were taught it. Whether trying to order food in French (and getting thrown because the waiter asked them something in a different order), letting out the main when bearing away (and being thrown as the main sheet is blue not yellow) or landing a glider (and approaching the circuit from a new direction). You only develop that flexibility quickly by experience of different boats, so the CC course will get them through the rote learning stage, but for many it won't be enough to get them to the stage of being flexible, it wouldn't be practical (or probably commercially viable).

Wind awareness isn't specifically taught at any stage I've yet seen, when I booked my DS course they expected me to be wind/point of sail aware already (and said so specifically).
 
I am struggling to disagree with Awol but dammit I can't find a single flaw. I have thought for sometime that the RYA scheme is somewhat flawed. I regularly come across people overestimating their competence; people badged as competent crew who seem quite unable to adapt to a different boat from the one they did their course on, and Day Skippers with poor wind awareness for example. Sometimes people who have learned by doing have a bit more awareness of the gaps in their own knowledge; I just read something on another thread where the poster freely admitted to never ever having put his boat alongside a pontoon. Contrast that with a boat owner I know, an excellent chap and clearly developing competence, who having had his own boat for 2 years now following acquisition of DS status, anchored her for the first time a month or two ago.....

I've said it before on these forums and I suppose I'll say it again. Comp Crew, Day Skipper, and Coastal Skipper are NOT qualifications, they are certificates of completion on the course. I have all three and very useful they were too, but they are a way to start sailing rather than teaching everything there is to know. We could require that everyone take the Yachtmaster Coastal exam before going out on a boat but then there might be a bit of a backlog while everyone with a boat gets qualified :) Frustrating though these things are, the reality is that very few people get into trouble, and of them even fewer are in any actual danger.
 
Wind awareness isn't specifically taught at any stage I've yet seen, when I booked my DS course they expected me to be wind/point of sail aware already (and said so specifically).

As they should, that's part of the comp crew course. It's hardly their fault if you skipped learning to sail and went straight for commanding a yacht (no offense, you may have been able to sail already).
 
As they should, that's part of the comp crew course. It's hardly their fault if you skipped learning to sail and went straight for commanding a yacht (no offense, you may have been able to sail already).

Wind awareness came quite easily as I already flew, so it was a relatively easy translation. It was quite obvious the difference between trying to teach my learner pilot wife and my non flying father (who in most other respects is a more practical and hands on person).


And yes, I already knew how to sail, before booking my DS, learned by doing :p

But if I didn't find wind awareness easy, I'd have struggled and probably not realised until out on my own for the first time how important it was.
 
....happens to me every time I go out... :o

....cycle start, last sailing session went very well very pleased with myself, "this session will be brilliant as I'm not a bad sailor after all", leave mooring, something happens *, get back to mooring thinking "yee gods I have a lot to learn", repeat cycle....

* last time out I clumped a starboard marker pole on the way back - was standing the wrong side of the boom, with the boom at head height I didn't see it...... no harm done but it brings you back down to earth... :D

Bet I know which one!! :D
5j96V4
 
And yes, I already knew how to sail, before booking my DS, learned by doing :p

But if I didn't find wind awareness easy, I'd have struggled and probably not realised until out on my own for the first time how important it was.

If you didn't, you'd have booked the comp crew course and would have been taught it :D
 
If you didn't, you'd have booked the comp crew course and would have been taught it :D

I did, and I wasn't, at least not in enough detail that I could say I was comfortable with it. Sailing 101, i.e. how do I get a boat from A to B under sail, doesn't seem to be a big part of CC, rather the focus was on mechanics.

Personally I taught myself how to do it on flotilla boats (with a company that doesn't require DS to charter, but watch you like a hawk). I survived, and I didn't even damage anything!
 
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