If importing boat from EU on back of lorry? What happens about VAT?

[syvictoria]

So with a boat why not just sail or truck it to the U.K. .Berth it up and walk away ?

It's likely that nothing will physically stop you from doing this. Your conscience may hopefully prevent you though, as tax evasion is a criminal offence here in the UK. Using your argument, equally what is to stop you from walking out of a shop without paying for goods if no one is looking?

 

[Croftie]

Or are you just recommending illegal falsification of the C1331 HMRC and Border Force processes plus criminal Tax Evasion ?

As I read it yes he was, but there again we all know Porto is a font of knowledge..............

 

[Portofino]

So you believe you know more about this topic than the experts at the Cruising Association, British Marine, RYA etc etc? If so please provide supporting evidence and sources.

Or are you just recommending illegal falsification of the C1331 HMRC and Border Force processes plus criminal Tax Evasion ?

The changes since Brexit definitely do make VAT - and RGR/ RCR - real and potentially expensive issues for Uk boat owners, and not an “internet generated problem” (or your rather more purile comment).

Nope just live in the real world not the virtual .
Married a HMRC auditor .
They are not interested .
And if they were would always offer you a cough up deal before any proceedings .

Any how do carry on perpetuating the scare stories guys .
I wait a boat owner of a scrappy Volvo powered 20 + yr old dated Princess who sailed in from the EU to end up in a court.

You are NOT vat ed or taxed on goods , cars watches etc and your other expensive chattels when you travel from / to the U.K. .
Same with planes .No ones quizzing .
You buy a high end Swiss watch and wear it .Post the box / papers home via the post .
You can travel with more than 1 watch , say a divers and and evening dress watch .
Heathrow would grind to a halt if HMRC actually opened up luggage and applied the law .re taxes / vat They Don’t .Never have done .Except obvious alcohol/ fags .

 

[Portofino]

As I read it yes he was, but there again we all know Porto is a font of knowledge..............

So in your eyes I would expect every time a U.K. boater that spends a night in another marina or buoy in other location the harbour master / marina office will demand proof of VAT paid ?
Every time a U.K. boat owner does a boaty transaction in the U.K. say internet Jimmy green fender socks et. He had to show the relevant VAT proof docs?
When Pete M ran his Internet boaty business he never dispatched goods until said VAT proof papers were made visible ?
Every time you bunkered up with fuel again the fuel guy wanted sight of VAT paid before switching the pistol on ?
RNLI will not “ shout “ unless VAT paid status is prove beforehand ?

What a weird place U.K. boating must now be every Tom Dick and Harry demanding VAT paid status …….except the one that really matters HMRC .

Very odd indeed chaps .

I am not saying what’s right or wrong or being judgmental just telling it as it is .

No ones interested in second hand goods that have zero proof of prerequisite taxes paid for U.K. registration requirements.

 

[petem]

So in your eyes I would expect every time a U.K. boater that spends a night in another marina or buoy in other location the harbour master / marina office will demand proof of VAT paid ?
Every time a U.K. boat owner does a boaty transaction in the U.K. say internet Jimmy green fender socks et. He had to show the relevant VAT proof docs?
When Pete M ran his Internet boaty business he never dispatched goods until said VAT proof papers were made visible ?
Every time you bunkered up with fuel again the fuel guy wanted sight of VAT paid before switching the pistol on ?
RNLI will not “ shout “ unless VAT paid status is prove beforehand ?

What a weird place U.K. boating must now be every Tom Dick and Harry demanding VAT paid status …….except the one that really matters HMRC .

Very odd indeed chaps .

I am not saying what’s right or wrong or being judgmental just telling it as it is .

No ones interested in second hand goods that have zero proof of prerequisite taxes paid for U.K. registration requirements.

As ever Porto, you are alone in missing a point that everyone else is able to comprehend very easily.

Paying VAT on the import of a boat isn't about getting caught, it's about fulfilling a legal obligation to do so.

I dare say I could diddle my income taxes and nobody would be any the wiser. But I don't and most people here I imagine don't either.

 

[petem]

Incidentally, people do get caught trying to evade VAT when importing watches, etc....

George Clooney faces £100,000 tax bill on fiancee's £415k ring

 

[Mr Googler]

So in your eyes I would expect every time a U.K. boater that spends a night in another marina or buoy in other location the harbour master / marina office will demand proof of VAT paid ?
Every time a U.K. boat owner does a boaty transaction in the U.K. say internet Jimmy green fender socks et. He had to show the relevant VAT proof docs?
When Pete M ran his Internet boaty business he never dispatched goods until said VAT proof papers were made visible ?
Every time you bunkered up with fuel again the fuel guy wanted sight of VAT paid before switching the pistol on ?
RNLI will not “ shout “ unless VAT paid status is prove beforehand ?

What a weird place U.K. boating must now be every Tom Dick and Harry demanding VAT paid status …….except the one that really matters HMRC .

Very odd indeed chaps .

I am not saying what’s right or wrong or being judgmental just telling it as it is .

No ones interested in second hand goods that have zero proof of prerequisite taxes paid for U.K. registration requirements.

FFS Porto! You’re a smart guy…..it’s about having all the correct requirements and paperwork in place as a current/future seller or buyer. A broker “shouldnt” even list a boat without proof of VAT, proof or CE (or RCR now), 5 years worth of BOS etc unless stating they are missing in the advert…..not least as any marine finance require all that before they will loan.

lack of proof of VAT reduces boat value….no 2 ways about it. Lack of RCD / CE/ RCR makes it illegal to use and uninsurable. Lack of RCR will make it illegal to put on the market without (I think) These are not trivial things.

anyone know what the RCR standards are…got an inspection template?

 

[Portofino]

Incidentally, people do get caught trying to evade VAT when importing watches, etc....

George Clooney faces £100,000 tax bill on fiancee's £415k ring

Yeh no hysterics no escalation to court etc .
Think about the 1000s who just stroll through every day with over £390 of what ever goods stuffed in luggage or wearing .
As I said offered to cough up .

 

[Portofino]

FFS Porto! You’re a smart guy…..it’s about having all the correct requirements and paperwork in place as a current/future seller or buyer. A broker “shouldnt” even list a boat without proof of VAT, proof or CE (or RCR now), 5 years worth of BOS etc unless stating they are missing in the advert…..not least as any marine finance require all that before they will loan.

lack of proof of VAT reduces boat value….no 2 ways about it. Lack of RCD / CE/ RCR makes it illegal to use and uninsurable. Lack of RCR will make it illegal to put on the market without (I think) These are not trivial things.

anyone know what the RCR standards are…got an inspection template?

You are mixing in clouding the water with other stuff .
My contention still stands turn up to a berth in the U.K. with used old ish boat from the EU on its own bottom and nobody interested in its VAT status .This is different to the ops issue which Tarona has covered in post #8 .

Of course if it’s from the EU fairly recent then it met the then necessary compliance requirements.
We are talking VAT here .
We are not getting into selling it on .We are not valuing it more than the market will support.
On line s insurance Cos don’t ask if it’s VAT paid , and I, am assuming it’s not on any finance.

There are 1000s of U.K. boats with hardly any paperwork esp on inland rivers .
Pop down to any house boat area in London and demand to see the VAT paid papers on a 1930s barge .
Folks loose paperwork all the time .
At any time in the future a owner who just sailed in can at his / her leisure approach HMRC if he / she is so inclined .

Repeat I am not suggesting avoid anything.Just saying nobody’s gonna come looking for you .

Nobody ( officialdom ) has ever gone through any rigmarole with me moving cars ( often worth more than a boat ) as I said from various origins on various new changed plates throughout various European countries.Or ever asked how long I plan to say with said vehicle in said state .

How ever a nod to PeteM s post #26 I have been asked about a watch at the CH / Fr border entering Fr by the Douanes .
” that’s an expensive watch sir “ .
I just said “Yeh had it a while officer “
Next Q was “ How much cash are you carrying ? “
As I started to fumble my wallet out of my trouser pocket he said “ No I mean in the trunk “
Just said “ none “
Waved me on without looking .
Pass through borders every other week they never ask for car papers or attempt to tax the vehicle.

 

[Mr Googler]

You are mixing in clouding the water with other stuff .
My contention still stands turn up to a berth in the U.K. with used old ish boat from the EU on its own bottom and nobody interested in its VAT status .This is different to the ops issue which Tarona has covered in post #8 .

Of course if it’s from the EU fairly recent then it met the then necessary compliance requirements.
We are talking VAT here .
We are not getting into selling it on .We are not valuing it more than the market will support.
On line s insurance Cos don’t ask if it’s VAT paid , and I, am assuming it’s not on any finance.

There are 1000s of U.K. boats with hardly any paperwork esp on inland rivers .
Pop down to any house boat area in London and demand to see the VAT paid papers on a 1930s barge .
Folks loose paperwork all the time .
At any time in the future a owner who just sailed in can at his / her leisure approach HMRC if he / she is so inclined .

Repeat I am not suggesting avoid anything.Just saying nobody’s gonna come looking for you .

Nobody ( officialdom ) has ever gone through any rigmarole with me moving cars ( often worth more than a boat ) as I said from various origins on various new changed plates throughout various European countries.Or ever asked how long I plan to say with said vehicle in said state .

How ever a nod to PeteM s post #26 I have been asked about a watch at the CH / Fr border entering Fr by the Douanes .
” that’s an expensive watch sir “ .
I just said “Yeh had it a while officer “
Next Q was “ How much cash are you carrying ? “
As I started to fumble my wallet out of my trouser pocket he said “ No I mean in the trunk “
Just said “ none “
Waved me on without looking .
Pass through borders every other week they never ask for car papers or attempt to tax the vehicle.

I clouded the waters……bloody cars and watches!????

no doubt you are right…it’ll be fine if you make your own way to Blighty and tell no one nothin’……until it isn’t…or you want to sell to someone slightly clued up in the future.

 

[kashurst]

And that's the problem - it's all perfectly OK - until suddenly it isn't.
Most people have no idea about VAT, duties, taxes etc. They buy a boat in good faith enjoy it for a few years, then they go to sell it. No problem unless someone a bit more wary turns up and asks for VAT receipt and RCD papers. Oh sh!t. - quite often the broker they bought it through is the one asking! I only found out about boat vat etc through this forum 20 years ago. Fortunately our first boat was so old vat didnt apply. The next one it definitely did and I checked it out before buying.
If you are worth a few bob - no problem, do a deal forget it. If you mortgaged your house to buy the boat - heart attack time.

 

[petem]

You are mixing in clouding the water with other stuff .
My contention still stands turn up to a berth in the U.K. with used old ish boat from the EU on its own bottom and nobody interested in its VAT status .This is different to the ops issue which Tarona has covered in post #8 .

Of course if it’s from the EU fairly recent then it met the then necessary compliance requirements.
We are talking VAT here .
We are not getting into selling it on .We are not valuing it more than the market will support.
On line s insurance Cos don’t ask if it’s VAT paid , and I, am assuming it’s not on any finance.

There are 1000s of U.K. boats with hardly any paperwork esp on inland rivers .
Pop down to any house boat area in London and demand to see the VAT paid papers on a 1930s barge .
Folks loose paperwork all the time .
At any time in the future a owner who just sailed in can at his / her leisure approach HMRC if he / she is so inclined .

Repeat I am not suggesting avoid anything.Just saying nobody’s gonna come looking for you .

Nobody ( officialdom ) has ever gone through any rigmarole with me moving cars ( often worth more than a boat ) as I said from various origins on various new changed plates throughout various European countries.Or ever asked how long I plan to say with said vehicle in said state .

How ever a nod to PeteM s post #26 I have been asked about a watch at the CH / Fr border entering Fr by the Douanes .
” that’s an expensive watch sir “ .
I just said “Yeh had it a while officer “
Next Q was “ How much cash are you carrying ? “
As I started to fumble my wallet out of my trouser pocket he said “ No I mean in the trunk “
Just said “ none “
Waved me on without looking .
Pass through borders every other week they never ask for car papers or attempt to tax the vehicle.

Nobody is disputing your claim that customs officers / HMRC won't be patrolling pontoons or anchorages demanding to see the VAT status of boats.

However, let's look at the three ways that a boat might be imported into the UK.

1) On its own bottom - pleasure boats cross the channel all of the time. Post Brexit / transition period there are now rules in place that require an imported to fill in the appropriate forms and pay VAT as applicable. Someone can consciously decide not to do this and it is unlikely they'll get caught.

2) On the back of a truck - presumably, the trucking company would need to be told to drive through the "Nothing to Declare lane". This feels like a deliberate / pre-meditated evasion of tax to me. If a customs officer sees a £million boat on the back of a truck, I'm not convinced that they'll happily waive it through without asking any questions and making further enquiries.

3) On a ship - I find it hard to believe that the paperwork for all vessels being unloaded (that may include much larger boats) won't be checked by customs.

The above is completely different to the 1000's of boats already / historically in the UK where there is no reason to suspect that the correct VAT was not paid at the time of purchase.

Geddit?

 

[oldgit]

This whole U.K. VAT on old boats , second hand boats is U.K. annal anal retentive artificially internet generated problem that in reality does not exist .

However do carry on Pete it’s hilarious listen to you .

Until you want to sell it ?
Suspect that the vast majority of motorboats of any size and value are bought and sold via a broker in UK .
Only smaller/older and boats with virtually no residual value are sold privately and unlikely to raise any interest with HMRC or VAT.
The smaller the cheaper the boat the less likely it is to be sourced outside UK , only larger boats being worth the time and trouble to import, ie exactly the sort to be sold via a broker.
Many boats do not stay with their owners very long , some ungrading very quickly and not a few skippers packing it in within a year or two.
First
Brokers will probably not want to have HMRC and esp. VAT crawling all over their books ( it can take years ) so will be ultra careful about provenance and paperwork especially now.

Of course we can sell your Prinline 42 , Sir , so you paid £200 K and bought it back to UK from EU under its own steam to avoid some annoying paperwork and minor financial irritations which apparently are optional

Grabbitt & Runne . Marine Brokers.
"We" may have slight problem here Sir. .


Notice 300: customs civil investigation of suspected evasion

• Could have foreseen the circumstances that led to the contravention, and if so the steps you took to avoid it
• Contacted us to ask for help or advice
• Gave sufficient priority to completing any returns or declarations
• Genuine mistakes, honesty and acting in good faith are not reasonable excuses and the law provides specifically that you do not have a reasonable excuse if you:
• Cannot afford to pay (whilst this is not in itself a ‘reasonable excuse’ we will look at the underlying cause of your inability to pay – in exceptional circumstances this underlying cause may be a ‘reasonable excuse’)
• Relied on someone else:
  • to act on your behalf
  • and it is their conduct which led to the contravention

and that just the financial side of it.
When you buy a boat you buy all its outstanding debts as well.

 

[The Q]

One thing not mentioned is if you are moving back home to the UK , having lived abroad as I did. I was told by customs, there is nothing to pay on a boat, unless you sell it within 5 years.
Not that they've ever checked on the boat or it's whereabouts. I've still got it..

 

[syvictoria]

One thing not mentioned is if you are moving back home to the UK , having lived abroad as I did. I was told by customs, there is nothing to pay on a boat, unless you sell it within 5 years.
Not that they've ever checked on the boat or it's whereabouts. I've still got it..

This is Returned Goods Relief. This can be claimed by any owner who is returning a boat to the UK, so long as they were the original exporter. Therefore RGR cannot be used by those that buy a boat abroad and wish to bring it to the UK. Officially there's a 3 year limit for RGR, but that is normally (always?) waived by HMRC.

 

[DavidJ]

This is Returned Goods Relief. This can be claimed by any owner who is returning a boat to the UK, so long as they were the original exporter. Therefore RGR cannot be used by those that buy a boat abroad and wish to bring it to the UK. Officially there's a 3 year limit for RGR, but that is normally (always?) waived by HMRC.

Indeed, and there is something going through at the moment to wave the 3 yr rule. It will help me because I was the exporter 20 yrs ago but I may get tripped up by UKCA (RCR2) requirements
https://www.rya.org.uk/news/rya-wel...he-3-year-condition-for-returned-goods-relief