ribrunt
Well-Known Member
And fair to say the most extreme (100/102) and busiest (104/106) patches too... !!
If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.
- Thread starter Sybarite
- Start date
And fair to say the most extreme (100/102) and busiest (104/106) patches too... !!
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
It's not the 'privatisation' of the Air Sea Rescue service that worries the people I talk to, but the fact that in the process, we have totally missed the opportunity to develop a world class, comprehensive national helicopter service, incorporating the best of the charity air ambulances, Coastguard sea rescue aircraftcraft and service helicopters.
The weirdness of the present system is that if you need a speedy evacuation from an inland (lowland) incident, you have to rely on a charity flight, but if you need help at sea, on the coast or hills, or an island, the government will fund your rescue.
It's also a myth that one type of helicopter these days is suitable for deployment in all areas; the agility you need to pluck a couple of climbers off the north face of Ben Nevis is not the same demand as flying out for hundreds of miles over open sea to evacuate dozens from a cruise ship.
A bit of imagination in the planning could see the best aspects of all the different providers integrated to do what each bit does best. The RAF should maintain two flights (Cornwall and Shetland) with Sea Stallion helicopters and a Hercules maritime radar platform, which can also load an inflight refuelling pod to allow helicopter rescue to extend fully out into our area of responsibility in the N Atlantic. (It's quite indicative that the Americans are so disappointed with the RAF's present air/sea rescue capability that for the first time they have now stationed their own assets in the UK). The coast guard can then provide the backbone of the coastal service whilst the air ambulance service in hill country, could be augmented by some public money to fly slightly more sophisticated aircraft with a 24 hours capability.
But driven by economics alone, we are going to end up with a 'one size fits all', patchy service, but I suppose that will be better than having the playing fields in Ambleside littered with broken down Sea Kings as they fly working models in to replace them from ever more distant air stations.
The weirdness of the present system is that if you need a speedy evacuation from an inland (lowland) incident, you have to rely on a charity flight, but if you need help at sea, on the coast or hills, or an island, the government will fund your rescue.
It's also a myth that one type of helicopter these days is suitable for deployment in all areas; the agility you need to pluck a couple of climbers off the north face of Ben Nevis is not the same demand as flying out for hundreds of miles over open sea to evacuate dozens from a cruise ship.
A bit of imagination in the planning could see the best aspects of all the different providers integrated to do what each bit does best. The RAF should maintain two flights (Cornwall and Shetland) with Sea Stallion helicopters and a Hercules maritime radar platform, which can also load an inflight refuelling pod to allow helicopter rescue to extend fully out into our area of responsibility in the N Atlantic. (It's quite indicative that the Americans are so disappointed with the RAF's present air/sea rescue capability that for the first time they have now stationed their own assets in the UK). The coast guard can then provide the backbone of the coastal service whilst the air ambulance service in hill country, could be augmented by some public money to fly slightly more sophisticated aircraft with a 24 hours capability.
But driven by economics alone, we are going to end up with a 'one size fits all', patchy service, but I suppose that will be better than having the playing fields in Ambleside littered with broken down Sea Kings as they fly working models in to replace them from ever more distant air stations.
FishyInverness
Well-Known Member
Interesting and informative, cheers Chanelyacht - Incidentally, which of those Civ flights has taken over from RAF Lossie?
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
I don't think the RAF flight has been replaced yet. But they do signal quite frequently that they are unable to keep an aircraft on immediate standby due to a crew shortage and the decrepit state of their aircraft.
The MOD says we shouldn't worry as this doesn't effect operational efficiency'.
But don't say how.
FishyInverness
Well-Known Member
I'll try *not* to bear that in mind when it's hovering about 50 metres above my house as it does on a regular basis!
Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
There have been USAF SAR helicopters in the UK since at least 1970 (at RAF Woodbridge), maybe even before that.
ribrunt
Well-Known Member
Yep, I think a well-known yottin magazine covered a very long distance rescue into the Atlantic some years ago with 2x helos, refuelling tankers and top cover by those USAF assets
Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
Story here:
http://www.mildenhall.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123127989
Two helicopters were refuelled by Hercs, which were themselves refuelled by KC-135s.
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
Their units were stationed here (Woodbridge and later Mildenhall), but for deployment into Europe and other theatres as part of their tactical pilot recovery capability.
But in 2002, a request to assist with a civilian rescue in the NE Atlantic that was beyond the capabilities of the UK helicopters prompted them to make their rescue unit here to become 'active' for the first time, as the RAF/RN didn't have, and in the new privatised service, still won't have, any air to air refuelling and therefore only limited range west of Shannon.
But in 2002, a request to assist with a civilian rescue in the NE Atlantic that was beyond the capabilities of the UK helicopters prompted them to make their rescue unit here to become 'active' for the first time, as the RAF/RN didn't have, and in the new privatised service, still won't have, any air to air refuelling and therefore only limited range west of Shannon.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
What I actually wrote :
Post 671
Investments directly spent on boats : 6%
Post 692
Crews free, boats 6% of income that leaves a lot over for the rest. Here's another fact : the salary budget is over 9 times what is spent on acquiring boats (that is boats alone, not launching systems or stations).
We are talking about capital expenditure not running costs. When we take 6% away from 100% that leaves a lot for the rest, especially as the retained surplus for the period has been double the amount spent on boats.
I used the audited accounts from 2007 to 2011.
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Sybarite
Well-Known Member
The Troll declared he was bowing out of the discussion about three pages ago, and then keeps turning up. (And before you say it, no, the posts you have made since you said that were not in response to you being "misrepresented") sadly, I think he is self-feeding.
Incidentally Chanelyacht, with my ex-Ambulance hat on. How is the civilian contract for the coastguard helos going to be affected by civilian aviation regulations? I do remember very distinctly that call I referred to earlier. A doctor wanted a patient on one of the hebridean islands airlifted due to appendicitis (non-acute, but hey, you have to do the whim of the medical professional!) - The conditions were awful - Helimed couldn't be used because of civilian aviation regulations about poor flying conditions (there is a point where civilian aircraft are not permitted to be used for extraction, I don't know the exact details, but that night, Helimed were not permitted to fly because of this) and so the doctor forced the ambulance service, red-facedly, to task the RAF SAR to pick up the patient as the military do not come under those regulations.
Now, in that situation, it was made very clear that the RAF Helo crew were the only aircraft that could be tasked to the job, because they don't have to abide by the civilian rules for "rescue" in poor weather conditions - do you have any idea where is this going to leave a civilian contracted SAR service?
Oh, and Achwilan -Stick some missiles on it and we can add it to the Navy?
Apart from Ribrunt who made a sort of attempt to discuss figures, you and the others studiously ignore them to name call me.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Question : (I suppose you mean 25 knt offshore fleet):
As the SNSM AWBs have the same announced top speed as the RNLI boats why do they (boat for boat) not have the same offshore capability?
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Now we know how the French manage to buy their lifeboats so cheap
http://www.apolloduck.com/image.phtml?id=274226&image=3
Uh ... I see an ad in English...??
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
I accept that that could explain some numbers - the French do the same - but not the total payroll costs nor the increase in the number of people earning more than £60k.
FishyInverness
Well-Known Member
*Laughs* that's not even a response to my point, which was "Sybarite declared himself as bowing out of this thread unless misrepresented, but still comes back to argue facts" this page alone contains 4 direct responses to things being discussed which don't even mention you, or your representation.
I have only "name called" you once, and that was labelling you a troll as above. I'm afraid I stand by that, as you do appear to continually want to stir things up to cause people to argue with you, and the is the behaviour of an internet troll. My contribution in interaction with you has mostly been to point out why you are alienating people and ask you to examine your responses and perhaps be a little more humble when proved wrong, it wasn't name calling...
I asked you to admit you were wrong about the Shannon being a solely shallow water boat - instead of directly doing that you said "I never denied it was an all weather boat" so no admission, just a deflection, and a wrong one at that because this was despite the direct quotation I presented you with in the post before showing that denying it was exactly what you did...I do give up, because you refuse to accept that anything other than your opinion can be the truth.
As a result, your credibility on this thread is waning heavily.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
I debate points which you may not agree with. It's not for that that I am not entitled to my opinion or my participation.
The basic object of this thread was to show that another model exists which costs one tenth as much as the RNLI one, that you cannot demonstrate that the overall success statistics of the two organisations are significantly different and therefore,as I said before, you haven't demonstrated that the SNSM boats, spec'd differently and significantly cheaper, are not fit for purpose.
I also said that if the two organisations pooled their resources, and why not with the Dutch one as well -who appear also to have developed a super model, closer to the French one, IMO) - economies of scale and a fresh view could be achieved.
ribrunt
Well-Known Member
Can't wait to see the SSNSM in operation (that'll be the Sybarite Société Nationale de Sauvetage en Mer) with all its income spent on boats and fantastic volunteer crews.
However, said boats & crew will be sat upon the shoreline, unable to get to the water, sans boathouses, sans diesel, and slowly decaying without maintenance.
Oh, and for someone who is feeling they have been called names and insulted - I'm glad you consider my post as "a sort of attempt to discuss figures".
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Try the audited accounts - for two services, each of which satisfactorily carries out its functiuon:
Operating expenses RNLI €188m (£150m : of which salaries : £56m)
Operating expenses SNSM €20m
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
Yes, I did mean 25knot.
It is not the boats that have a different capabilty, it's the services - the RNLI can reach an incident at any point up to 50nm off the coast within 2 hours . The French boats can do the same from each station, but if you draw a 2 hour circle around each UK lifeboat station, there won't be any gaps. Do the same in France, especially taking into account tidal launch windows, and there will be huge gaps.
The services are not doing the same thing.
Don't forget the RNLI's commitment includes the Republic of Ireland, Isle of Man and Channel Islands too.
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree we've missed the chance to come up with a single national air service, along the lines of France's Securite Civil (shutup Sybarite, I know the French do that better
) but I don't agree we'll end up with a one size fits all - only the military do that at present, the CG operate different aircraft in southern England to those in Northern Scotland.But then the UK missed the chance to look at a single national maritime policy, or in so many other areas of policy.
I'll miss seeing the SeaKings, but I still think we'll end up with a better service.