If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[glashen]

I am truly amazed by the number of people who appear not to be phased by the enormous sums involved. Must all be the hyper rich yachties...!

Why would anyone be phased by the sums involved, you could be concerned about government or personal debt levels, but why would you be concerned about the spending of an organisation that is clearly living within means. Indeed one of the main complaints is that the RNLI has too much money! Frankly that comment strikes me as naive.

Frankly the start of this thread had an apparently credible proposition, that the French lifeboats did the same job as the RNLI for a lot less money, that was pretty comprehensively proved to me as incorrect by page 2, if anyone still has any doubts I would read Tim Bennet's post above, but since then we have had all sorts of twisting to implicate the RNLI as badly run without IMO any success. Now we get a statement that amounts to "It's an awful lot of money" so like the others "I'm out" as well.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I am truly amazed by the number of people who appear not to be phased by the enormous sums involved.

Probably because most people recognize the work done by RNLi as being worthwhile.

The sums involved are not that large when set against the sums involved by a typical public sector cock-up such as the recent West Coast Rail franchise mess, or a common or garden MoD procurement farce. Though I'm sure that in France everything is perfect with these things.

If you also care to look at many other charities you'll see that RNLI is much the same as them. Reserves, pay of CEO's etc etc.

But, as others have said, it's time to leave this. There's no point in feeding the trolls any more.

 

[jordanbasset]

Probably because most people recognize the work done by RNLi as being worthwhile.

The sums involved are not that large when set against the sums involved by a typical public sector cock-up such as the recent West Coast Rail franchise mess, or a common or garden MoD procurement farce. Though I'm sure that in France everything is perfect with these things.

If you also care to look at many other charities you'll see that RNLI is much the same as them. Reserves, pay of CEO's etc etc.

But, as others have said, it's time to leave this. There's no point in feeding the trolls any more.

That is why I backed off in the end, trying to get to grips with the arguments was like trying to grab an eel out of a tub of vaseline

 

[viago]

If you also care to look at many other charities you'll see that RNLI is much the same as them. Reserves, pay of CEO's etc etc.

spending 6% of income on boats and an equal amount on staff pensions and not paying the crew is ok then?
just so long as we can find other "charities" whose management claim the same extortionate salaries.

wake up! smell the coffee! it smells of gravy!

 

[achwilan]

areas

...but I would hazard a guess that there are more British yachtsmen in areas covered by the SNSM than the contrary....

I understand all those jolly tars must be quite terrified to have to rely on a so shabby SNSM... ))

 

[Searush]

spending 6% of income on boats and an equal amount on staff pensions and not paying the crew is ok then?
just so long as we can find other "charities" whose management claim the same extortionate salaries.

wake up! smell the coffee! it smells of gravy!

Welcome to the real world.

Funny how there is never any shortage of volunteer crew for the exciting bits & yet they have to pay people to sit in the offices & make it all work properly for the volunteers.

The higher you go up ANY organisation (& that includes the John Lewis Partnership, all Unions & the Co-operative Movement - even the Communist Party) then the people who take the most responsibility for organisation, strategy & long term survival of the organisation are the best rewarded.

You have also already been told about volunteer Teachers, Firemen, Nurses, Para-medics, Police, Coastguard, Mountain Rescue, Scout & Guide leaders, Charity shop workers, fundraisers, Theatre workers, etc etc. Maybe you should offer your skills in some sort of voluntary Social role to help your understanding of the world.

That smells of normal to me. But then maybe my MBA was all a pack of Capitalist lies.

But I really don't know why I am wasting my keyboard on this any more.

 

[achwilan]

dual purpose / multirole

The fact does remain that the Shannon is an expensive boat - but it does both the job of the French RIBS which you are using as the solution to shallow water and Offshore All-Weather Boats, it is truly dual purpose where the French would need to use two boats to achieve the same purpose (Shallow water launching of an All Weather rescue capability) - The French don't seem to have a boat which can do both jobs to the best performance, and so the cost, it would appear, is justified.
.

...a nautical avatar of the JSF ?...

 

[Sybarite]

yet they have to pay people to sit in the offices & make it all work properly for the volunteers.

The higher you go up ANY organisation (& that includes the John Lewis Partnership, all Unions & the Co-operative Movement - even the Communist Party) then the people who take the most responsibility for organisation, strategy & long term survival of the organisation are the best rewarded.

.

But not in the SNSM.

 

[ditchcrawler]

Please do not feed the Troll anymore

 

[ribrunt]

Please do not feed the Troll anymore

Not feeding the trolls, but I'm not sure which of me is most frustrated - RNLI crew, RNLI member or accountant..... So some facts.

All these figures are taken from 2011 Annual (Audited) Financial statements and excluding depreciation or indirects.

Income 2011 £172m, of which £16.4 (9%) spent on building lifeboats, £10.9m (6%) on building shoreworks & stations, and a further £18.9m (10.9%) on direct Operational Maintenance.

So, an alternative view for 2011 to the "6%" spent on boats is actually 27%... and that's before including direct staff costs for Operational Maintenance and Rescue, which would bring it to 59%....

Ah well, only a factor of 10 out. Minor detail when trolling an internet forum. Thankfully our nav skills tend to be a teeny bit more accurate....

And I will leave you with this thought.... imagine the good that all this passion and emotion (and for this thread even time!) could do if channelled into a voluntary Societe or Institution rather than an internet forum.

Just sayin.

 

[viago]

Welcome to the real world.

Funny how there is never any shortage of volunteer crew for the exciting bits & yet they have to pay people to sit in the offices & make it all work properly for the volunteers.

The higher you go up ANY organisation (& that includes the John Lewis Partnership, all Unions & the Co-operative Movement - even the Communist Party) then the people who take the most responsibility for organisation, strategy & long term survival of the organisation are the best rewarded.

You have also already been told about volunteer Teachers, Firemen, Nurses, Para-medics, Police, Coastguard, Mountain Rescue, Scout & Guide leaders, Charity shop workers, fundraisers, Theatre workers, etc etc. Maybe you should offer your skills in some sort of voluntary Social role to help your understanding of the world.

That smells of normal to me. But then maybe my MBA was all a pack of Capitalist lies.

But I really don't know why I am wasting my keyboard on this any more.

i think it safe to assume that marine biology is safe from the attention of the capitalist propaganda machine.
unfortunately, i dont have the skills to be of use to society in any of the ways you suggest. however, i may be of assistance if someone needs their hull scraping for free.

 

[chanelyacht]

The impression I have is that the UK government has cut back on sea rescue helicopter cover and consequently rescues are more reliant on the RNLI.

Absolutely not the case.

In the UK, HM Coastguard operate 4 SAR helos - the most modern in Europe, and the fastest in the UK. These are civilian aircraft operated under contract.

In 2015, the UK military helicopters will be replaced by Coastguard contract aircraft - replacing 40 year old 120 knot airframes with brand new 160 knot aircraft.

In 2018, it is currently planned that the Portland helicopter will be withdrawn - mainly because its neighbours at Chivenor and Culdrose willl then be able to reach scene in the same time. There is some debate over this.

The problem with using helicopters for the majority of RNLI jobs is the helo isn't very good at bringing boats back

 

[chanelyacht]

Now you are not being logical; you yourself said that the UK has a much longer coastline yet the SNSM has a much larger fleet: 600 boats compared with 440.

No, you're misunderstanding things again. The RNLI commitment is to reach 50 miles offshore within 2 hours - hence a 25 offshore fleet.

The SNSM do not have the same offshore capability.

In this case, the 600 v 440 boat figure is totally irrelevant.

 

[Searush]

You're so patient Chanelyacht - respect.

I suppose it's your regular job that gives you regular practice of dealing with numpties from time to time.

 

[jonjo]

Increase in annual incoming resources 2011/2006 15.5%

Increase in staff costs 2011/2006 35.9%
Increase in staff numbers 25.6%
Increase in number paid > £60k 133.3%

The RNLI annual accounts are available on the Charity Commission’s site.

Nice work Sybarite, you rattled them today with the raw financial truth.

 

[FishyInverness]

Please do not feed the Troll anymore

The Troll declared he was bowing out of the discussion about three pages ago, and then keeps turning up. (And before you say it, no, the posts you have made since you said that were not in response to you being "misrepresented") sadly, I think he is self-feeding.

Incidentally Chanelyacht, with my ex-Ambulance hat on. How is the civilian contract for the coastguard helos going to be affected by civilian aviation regulations? I do remember very distinctly that call I referred to earlier. A doctor wanted a patient on one of the hebridean islands airlifted due to appendicitis (non-acute, but hey, you have to do the whim of the medical professional!) - The conditions were awful - Helimed couldn't be used because of civilian aviation regulations about poor flying conditions (there is a point where civilian aircraft are not permitted to be used for extraction, I don't know the exact details, but that night, Helimed were not permitted to fly because of this) and so the doctor forced the ambulance service, red-facedly, to task the RAF SAR to pick up the patient as the military do not come under those regulations.

Now, in that situation, it was made very clear that the RAF Helo crew were the only aircraft that could be tasked to the job, because they don't have to abide by the civilian rules for "rescue" in poor weather conditions - do you have any idea where is this going to leave a civilian contracted SAR service?


Oh, and Achwilan - Stick some missiles on it and we can add it to the Navy?

 

[jordanbasset]

Now we know how the French manage to buy their lifeboats so cheap
http://www.apolloduck.com/image.phtml?id=274226&image=3

 

[ribrunt]

do you have any idea where is this going to leave a civilian contracted SAR service?

We have had it in Ireland for many years now. While on ex they seem to be within civilian aviation parameters - e.g. when winching they will only winch if pulling <50% power to cope with a possible engine loss.

However, the guys in CHC have flown some amazing rescues where I suspect "normal" civilian helo rules were, let's say, inappropriate.

I do know that under Irish aviation legislation banning such practice, SAR budgies are expressly permitted to do a rotors-running hot refuel, so I suspect other exemptions also apply under law for other elements of running a civilian SAR service.

 

[chanelyacht]

We have had it in Ireland for many years now. While on ex they seem to be within civilian aviation parameters - e.g. when winching they will only winch if pulling <50% power to cope with a possible engine loss.

However, the guys in CHC have flown some amazing rescues where I suspect "normal" civilian helo rules were, let's say, inappropriate.

I do know that under Irish aviation legislation banning such practice, SAR budgies are expressly permitted to do a rotors-running hot refuel, so I suspect other exemptions also apply under law for other elements of running a civilian SAR service.

Yes, same for the UK. I do chuckle when people complain about "privatising" SAR helicopters - the first civilian contract for the CG started over 30 years ago!

Our civ crews currently carry the same exemption for SAR as the mil crews do - with a couple of minor exceptions, but these aren't ones that have ever compromised a rescue situation.

There will be no lowering of standards, no people left dying to help profits, or any such nonsense.

For the record, currently civilian flights are :

RESCUE 100 - Shetland
RESCUE 102 - Stornoway
RESCUE 104 - Lee on Solent
RESCUE 106 - Portland

JIGSAW RESCUE 1 - Bond, Miller Platform
JIGSAW RESCUE 2 - Bond, Aberdeen.

Plus associated standby aircraft, etc.

 

[chanelyacht]

Nice work Sybarite, you rattled them today with the raw financial truth.

I know this will fall on deaf ears, but for those actually interested in the facts, much of the increase in employed personnel comes from new lifeguard contracts from local authorities, and the subsequent need to set up a support infrastructure for the lifeguard service.

These are paid for by the local authority contract, not from charitable donations.

Sorry that some people seem to feel that during a recession, giving employment opportunities to people in often poorer areas is something to be decried.