If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[Bru]

So let me see

The French are using a customised version of a navigation programme developed for and marketed to the super yacht, work boat and racing boat market (source: Maxsea web site)

Whereas the RNLI are using an integrated Systems Information Management System which brings the lifeboats navigation, communication, machinery and systems information and control to every console position and which is a development of the Scisys SEAF system developed for military applications such as armoured fighting vehicles etc. (Source: Scisys website)

Once again, apples and pears.

 

[mikefleetwood]

Thanks for the translation - I wouldn't have got anywhere close!

I've never used MaxSea, so don't know a lot about it. I know several fishermen that do use it, so it seems to suit them. My only concern is that (I think) it runs on a PC platform - and they don't seem to have proved too reliable in a hostile marine environment (although the PCs with SSD that they are now using seem to be more robust). I don't know what the RNLI SIMS runs on, but I will say it looked very impressive when I was shown round the Lizard's new Tamar "RNLB Rose" - although, perhaps some might consider the camera in the engine room excessive. More seriously, what I did see was 3 or 4 duplicate "workstations" (for want of a better word) around the boat - any one of which can assume full control, giving a degree of redundancy in case of failiure or damage. Each station also has access to communications, navigation, instrumentation and CCTV in various key areas including crew and "casualty" accommodation, deck and, of course, engine room. I don't know about thhermal imaging capability - I'll have to ask someone.

 

[maxi77]

Think you are confusing the battlecruisers with 11 inch guns with the B & T which had eight 15"! like the bigger ones and both Japanese and Italian vessels their displacement was again understated. The latter were really vanity ships, although they did tie down our own fleet and, once, panicked our high command into the catastrophic error of scattering PQ17.

I thought mentioning the Graf Spee would have made it clear
I was not talking about the B & T. Mind you considering everything all the B & T were in the end any use for was being a pain in the neck. As I said the money should have been applied else where. But lucky for us they spend their naval cash very unwisely, just think if all that cash and steel had been applied to U Boat construction

 

[chanelyacht]

Thanks for the translation - I wouldn't have got anywhere close!

I've never used MaxSea, so don't know a lot about it. I know several fishermen that do use it, so it seems to suit them. My only concern is that (I think) it runs on a PC platform - and they don't seem to have proved too reliable in a hostile marine environment (although the PCs with SSD that they are now using seem to be more robust). I don't know what the RNLI SIMS runs on, but I will say it looked very impressive when I was shown round the Lizard's new Tamar "RNLB Rose" - although, perhaps some might consider the camera in the engine room excessive. More seriously, what I did see was 3 or 4 duplicate "workstations" (for want of a better word) around the boat - any one of which can assume full control, giving a degree of redundancy in case of failiure or damage. Each station also has access to communications, navigation, instrumentation and CCTV in various key areas including crew and "casualty" accommodation, deck and, of course, engine room. I don't know about thhermal imaging capability - I'll have to ask someone.

No, RNLI boats do not routinely have a FLIR (infra red) or thermal imaging capability.

As you rightly say, RNLI SIMS is so vastly different from MaxSea as to be totally different beasts. The RNLI design philosophy is that any "workstation" (crew position" apart from the helm can do any job - so the crew have no need to leave their seats during a passage. On of the highest percentages of crew injuries at sea is those sustained moving in the cabin during rough weather.

SIMS also gives those terminals a huge range of external functions - opening and closing vents, fuel lines, exhausts, an overall engine management capability, communications, SAR planning, AIS tracking for on scene command functions, and many more.

Not comparable in the least - so another epic fail by the bean counter with no lifeboating experience.

I also have friends on the SNSM design team, so bring on the next comment...

 

[Sybarite]

I also have friends on the SNSM design team, so bring on the next comment...

Perhaps they should check with their boss then. He thinks it state-of-the-art. Given that the lifeboatment are strapped to their seats (and there are 8 of them in the AWB) I would have thought that they might have distributed information systems too. But it's only a supposition; perhaps you can confirm or deny - and preferably without the sarcasm.

 

[chanelyacht]

Perhaps they should check with their boss then. He thinks it state-of-the-art. Given that the lifeboatment are strapped to their seats (and there are 8 of them in the AWB) I would have thought that they might have distributed information systems too. But it's only a supposition; perhaps you can confirm or deny - and preferably without the sarcasm.

It is state of the art for what it does - manage search patterns navigation.

From your own quotation - "new generation of tools for search and navigation at sea" and "software navigation aid".

It is still not in the same ballpark as SIMS.

You might have to forgive the slight sarcasm, it's what you get for constantly ignoring or questioning the comments of someone who actually has significant sea time with these things. Have you been out on any of the new generation RNLI boats?

 

[Sybarite]

It is state of the art for what it does - manage search patterns navigation.

From your own quotation - "new generation of tools for search and navigation at sea" and "software navigation aid".

It is still not in the same ballpark as SIMS.

You might have to forgive the slight sarcasm, it's what you get for constantly ignoring or questioning the comments of someone who actually has significant sea time with these things. Have you been out on any of the new generation RNLI boats?

I do not ignore your comments; I take them on board. However the question to ask is : are the French boats fit for purpose? If so then I would like to know what significant differences there are to justify the Severn at 70% more than the new French boat or the Tamar at 120% more.

We are talking about a heck of a lot of money: your money.

When I was FD in a car components firm and we tried to get an increase in our selling prices with the large car manufacturers, there was always a systematic refusal on the grounds that if we wanted more money we should look at our productivity. When we came back and said that we had carried out all the productivity gains we could make, they would come back and say: we will send our own inspectors into your factories and there will no price increases until all their recommendations are carried out. We ended up with a lean efficient organisation where there was no room for prestige products - and we manufactured life-saving components: brakes, seat belts, air bags etc.

The RNLI's structure and approach remind me of the car industry in the 60's and 70's. Even our own group had a team of financial people whose sole task was to see what the correct accounting procedures should be. Then the crisis hit the industry especially hard in the early 80's.

Management then said that they needed the workers on the shop floor and a handful of top people. nobody in the middle. Various layers of middle management disappeared overnight and we went from 80000 to 60000 in about a year. And we continued to produce the same output.

In another group we had a German subsidiary producing brake linings of the very highest quality : for Mercedes, Porsche, the TGV, airplanes etc. It was racking up large losses because they couldn't adjust to the changed market situation. They were producing a Rolls Royce when the market was calling for a Ford. They could only keep going because we were behind them and forced through the changes necessary for their very survival.

The RNLI is currently awash with money and is cushionnned at present from the current crisis. It is not adapting (IMHO) to the changed circumstances and is installing an economic model which will be very difficult to change in the future -when things will get very rough as I believe they will. (It is my feeling that a potential economic crisis worse than we have known to date is being damned up so as not to affect the US Presidental elections - that again is my opinion - but shared by a a growing number of economic commentators over there.) People may simply not have the means to contribute in the future as times get tougher. Paying £56m per year in salaries will soon exhaust the resources if the RNLI have an income shortfall.

This is the time when the RNLI should be tightening its belt when it has the resources and not when circumstances oblige it to.

OK I have made the points that I felt needed to be made and have drawn attention to certain things which, as this thread has shown, not everybody realized.

I am not winding people up; in the past the RNLI was THE charity I supported but as things are today, I would channel my giving elsewhere.

I am not recommending others to do the same but if I were a member I would be putting a lot of pressure on the management to justify their decisions.

The Bean Counter signing off...

(I wonder why the Chairman of General Motors was always a finance person?)

 

[chanelyacht]

(I wonder why the Chairman of General Motors was always a finance person?)

Which got it to the wonderful position of...er...bankruptcy. Perhaps if the Chairman had always been a motor industry person, they wouldn't have gone bust?

 

[Bru]

Which got it to the wonderful position of...er...bankruptcy. Perhaps if the Chairman had always been a motor industry person, they wouldn't have gone bust?

Exactly what i was thinking

So, having failed to convince anybody that the RNLI is procuring the wrong boats and buying the wrong systems and even having failed to convince the majority that the RNLI is paying it's employees too much and spending too much on non-essentials, now apparently the very financial model that permits the RNLI to fund such "excess" is flawed

Yeah Gods

 

[chanelyacht]

Exactly what i was thinking

So, having failed to convince anybody that the RNLI is procuring the wrong boats and buying the wrong systems and even having failed to convince the majority that the RNLI is paying it's employees too much and spending too much on non-essentials, now apparently the very financial model that permits the RNLI to fund such "excess" is flawed

Yeah Gods

He's failed to convince anyone that he knows the subject, never mind the rights and wrongs of the kit...

It has been known, on the odd dead quiet night watch when we're all feeling disenchanted, for certain coasties to peruse the "jobs" section of the RNLI website...

Funny thing is, they almost universally pay well below market rates, even for the PR type roles.

Couple of friends of mine are full time coxn/mechanics with them, and while the money is good if you're in a tiny community somewhere, if you're at one of the expensive to live stations, you're certainly not raking it in.

I get the feeling that our friend would, if put in charge of the RNLI, come up with the idea of outsourcing crewing to G4S (after all, who needs all that maritime knowledge when you have IT systems) and handle lifeboat paging from Mumbai

 

[PilotWolf]

Not sure even Mumbai could deal with Laserplot!

W.

 

[bbg]

He's failed to convince anyone that he knows the subject, never mind the rights and wrongs of the kit...

Well, he's certainly convinced me - that some people feel the RNLI shouldn't be questioned. Actually they've done that themselves through their own responses.

Rather than argue that his comparison is flawed (eg by pointing to a very concrete example of features that are essential on RNLI boats but unnecessary on SNSM boats), much of the response has been more along the lines of, "I'm happy with the RNLI service so I won't even look at how they achieve it. Whatever they do is fine by me. The new RNLI boats have jet drives so of course they're better and cost more. How dare you question the RNLI. How very dare you." (Some people have pointed out differences but to my mind have not developed their positions fully. Unfortunately even that approach is often coupled with the "how dare you" approach as well.))

All he's done is raise a point for discussion. By all means engage his argument. Unfortunately the RNLI seems to be such a sacred cow to some that they feel obliged to attack Sybarite personally just for having questioned some of the RNLI's practices.

(BTW this is not aimed solely or even primarily at cy.)

 

[lustyd]

I do not ignore your comments; I take them on board.

Then why didn't this long and pointless post simply say "no, I have absolutely no first hand experience of any of this stuff and bow to your superior knowledge of the subject as someone who has vast experience of most of it"?

The RNLI is currently awash with money and is cushionnned at present from the current crisis. It is not adapting (IMHO) to the changed circumstances and is installing an economic model which will be very difficult to change in the future -when things will get very rough as I believe they will.

Could it be, oh wise one, that they are cushioned because they have excellent management in place and that they are in this situation on purpose? Could it be with all the spare cash they have, they are in fact able to continue offering a full and undisrupted service despite the downturn? Could it be that the excellent marketing team have managed to get ongoing contributions through legacy donations which mean that they don't have to worry?

Could it be that you're not as switched on with the management stuff as perhaps you believe?

 

[lustyd]

All he's done is raise a point for discussion. By all means engage his argument. Unfortunately the RNLI seems to be such a sacred cow to some that they feel obliged to attack Sybarite personally just for having questioned some of the RNLI's practices.

And all the rest of us did was raise the point that we believe the RNLI boats to be superior and worth the money. With no facts (aside from ChannelYacht) on either side, both arguments are pointless. Lucky for all of us that we have someone with experience posting on the subject who doesn't believe that RNLI is badly managed, or that the boats are overpriced. For some reason though that was not the end of the discussion.

 

[glashen]

In a thread of this length it is hardly surprising there there have been some over the top statements on both sides, for example.

which in my view does not include paying so far over the odds for equipment or building "iconic" headquarters designed by celebrity architects. And as for higher management "compensation".......

Sybarites own posts, though I do not agree with him have for the most part been reasoned arguments, although he has shifted ground a number of times to maintain is position, however in my experience the best way to have a good argument is to tell other people what they should think as Sybarite did in the title of this thread!

 

[Hoolie]

And all the rest of us did was raise the point that we believe the RNLI boats to be superior and worth the money. With no facts (aside from ChannelYacht) on either side, both arguments are pointless. Lucky for all of us that we have someone with experience posting on the subject who doesn't believe that RNLI is badly managed, or that the boats are overpriced. For some reason though that was not the end of the discussion.

On the contrary - Sybarite has been vilified and subject to sarcastic and critical comments by a vocal majority on this thread. It doesn't do the reputation of the forum any good.

I agree with BBG that a valid point has been raised for discussion and, in common with nearly everyone here, I have no first hand experience of either RNLI or SNSM and would welcome a discussion of the topic without all the caustic comments.

And BTW I don't think Sybarite at any point in this thread has said or implied that the RNLI is badly managed.

 

[maxi77]

Well, he's certainly convinced me - that some people feel the RNLI shouldn't be questioned. Actually they've done that themselves through their own responses.

Rather than argue that his comparison is flawed (eg by pointing to a very concrete example of features that are essential on RNLI boats but unnecessary on SNSM boats), much of the response has been more along the lines of, "I'm happy with the RNLI service so I won't even look at how they achieve it. Whatever they do is fine by me. The new RNLI boats have jet drives so of course they're better and cost more. How dare you question the RNLI. How very dare you." (Some people have pointed out differences but to my mind have not developed their positions fully. Unfortunately even that approach is often coupled with the "how dare you" approach as well.))

All he's done is raise a point for discussion. By all means engage his argument. Unfortunately the RNLI seems to be such a sacred cow to some that they feel obliged to attack Sybarite personally just for having questioned some of the RNLI's practices.

(BTW this is not aimed solely or even primarily at cy.)

I think you like the OP have missed some key points. Quite a few RNLI stations need carriage launched boats to give a 24 hour service, the SNSM does not do this and do have tide bound craft at some stations. I think this is quite important especiall if your local boat is carriage launched. Also I for one would prefer that a volunteer who goes out in the worst conditions has not just adequate kit but the best. Yes it does cost more but through good fund raising the RNLI can afford it. Perhaps the French should donate more to their service. Also all to often the comparison made has been innappropriate comparing in most cases boats with different capabilities.

No organisation is above critiscism but lets make the critiscism appropriate and constructive

 

[Sailfree]

Just in passing I agree with Sailfree about most things but not when he says that the UK has the best health service in the world. I have health professionals in my family who had their eyes opened by French standards.

.

Sybarite,

I was being ironic. We regularly stay with friends in Pontrieux and have used the superb French Health service.

I made those statements to reflect the assumed attitude of some on here who always believe British is best. Working for a French owned company and having worked for long periods in both Russia and USA I recognise that we can improve the UK a lot by taking the best from other countries.

Even today the BBC headlines report yet another fall in the rankings for UK Universities.

Unfortunately the valid points that you have raised has hit the same nerve! We in the UK have nothing to learn from other countries and because of the reputation of the RNLI (mostly due to the dedication and unselfish work of the crews) no one is allowed to raise any questions. What I find sad is that while some had valid points and information that was new information for me some merely tried to discredit the messenger - you. Thank you raising the question and illustrating how the French operate but IMHO that if the RNLI could be improved in any way it won't be through open discussion due to the sacred cow attitude of so many.

 

[bbg]

I think you like the OP have missed some key points. Quite a few RNLI stations need carriage launched boats to give a 24 hour service, the SNSM does not do this and do have tide bound craft at some stations. I think this is quite important especiall if your local boat is carriage launched.

Not sure I've missed any points. That is a legitimate issue, but I haven't seen anyone say that a carriage-launching requirement is the REASON for a higher price. I'm not saying it isn't, just that I don't think anyone can say that it IS. (The price of the carriage system is a different issue, and obviously is required for carriage-launched boats).

Also I for one would prefer that a volunteer who goes out in the worst conditions has not just adequate kit but the best. Yes it does cost more but through good fund raising the RNLI can afford it.

Every time you go up in a commercial airliner you are going up in kit that is adequate, and NOT the best. Because most people aren't prepared to pay squillions more for something that is "the best", when "adequate" is perfectly fine.

Frankly I don't have a view one way or the other on whether the RNLI is wasting money. All I say is that Sybarite's initial post was sufficient that it should make some members think about the question. Instead he has been vilified for raising the issue.

 

[Sybarite]

The question that wasn't answered was: are the French boats fit for purpose and if so what additional characteristics justify the fact that the RNLI boats are twice the price (+70% Severn, + 120% Tamar)? We're not talking about jet drives now.