Ideas for a new cruising boat please - which won't need yard storage...

[roblpm]

Roblpm you said "lifting keel is more maintenance than bilge" - what do you have to do? Can the keel be lifted upwards out of the boat, or does it have be hung on crane slings to antifoul etc. Are there any wear and tear components that need attention? Another thing that puts me off lift keels - although so far my Seal 22 has been absolutely fine!

It can be lifted out of the top of the boat. But its 500kg i think. I think the keel got heavier from the Seal 26 to Parker 27 to Parker 275.

The winch, winch wire (or strong string in my case now!) need maintenance. I still have a manual winch on mine. Cheap to replace from the usa but they rust. So lots of grease required! Other boats have electric winches. One guy has invented a hydraulic lifting mechanism that looks cool. Info om owners website http://www.parkerseal.org.uk/about.aspx

The main problem is getting to the keel to maintain it. Mine winters on a cradle on blocks which are high enough to nearly lower the keel entirely. I raise the keel after every sail so most of it isn't in the water all the time.

 

[wotayottie]

Cheers for your ideas,

Trev

Got a pal who has happily overwintered on a harbour masters mooring in Falmouth.

As for a boat to take another couple it rather depends on your age. Two couples aged 25 are very different to two couples aged 55. In the former case you might get away with a Parker. For the latter you need something like a 35/36ft Westerly or Moody bilge.

 

[[3889]]

Once upon a time I had a Hunter Horizon 26, whilst it had very good accommodation for the size the sailing performance was disappointing. Westerly's of a bilge keel variety seem to be 'good bang for the buck' and no doubt have solid construction that would take some bottom bouncing, but I wonder if they will have the sailing performance I'm looking for.
!

If you were disappointed with the Hunter 26 I wouldn't get your hopes up with any Westerly. I had a Hunter 272 and found it's performance at the upper end of similar twin keelers. I also had a lifting keel 21'er and maintenance was a nightmare unless craned onto a cradle The Parkers/ Super seals are great boats but have the lifting keel issues. A Beneteau First 260 is a nippy, voluminous boat but has a keel stub: bad for drying out, good for bottom access.

 

[Concerto]

If you were disappointed with the Hunter 26 I wouldn't get your hopes up with any Westerly.

What a load of rubbish as you have obviously never sailed a Fulmar. When I chatted with Ed Dubois about a year before he died, he still considered the Fulmar to be be his most favourite design for balanced sailing. They were also used for international match racing. The bilge keel version Fulmar is not quite as fast as a fin, but certainly a lot better than many other similar sized bilge keel boat of the that period and within the OP's budget. According to Byron handicaps the Portsmouth number for a fin is 959 and a bilge is 1002. By comparison the Moody 31 bilge keel is 1047. Many people consider even the lowly Centaur to be sluggish, but so many are owned by people who cruise, not race, but have someone who can race well on board and they perform well.

The Fulmar is on the OP's list and should seriously be considered as it will meet his sailability and his wife's choice of interior space - and will be in his budget. The ¾ rig makes it very easy to handle. I know of lots of owners who have had theirs for over 15 years, and the answer is always the whole package is difficult to beat.

 

[roblpm]

What a load of rubbish as you have obviously never sailed a Fulmar. When I chatted with Ed Dubois about a year before he died, he still considered the Fulmar to be be his most favourite design for balanced sailing. They were also used for international match racing. The bilge keel version Fulmar is not quite as fast as a fin, but certainly a lot better than many other similar sized bilge keel boat of the that period and within the OP's budget. According to Byron handicaps the Portsmouth number for a fin is 959 and a bilge is 1002. By comparison the Moody 31 bilge keel is 1047. Many people consider even the lowly Centaur to be sluggish, but so many are owned by people who cruise, not race, but have someone who can race well on board and they perform well.

The Fulmar is on the OP's list and should seriously be considered as it will meet his sailability and his wife's choice of interior space - and will be in his budget. The ¾ rig makes it very easy to handle. I know of lots of owners who have had theirs for over 15 years, and the answer is always the whole package is difficult to beat.

I did suggest a Fulmar in post 5!!

 

[Trevelyan]

Parkers and the Fulmar are on the list for sure! Now thinking three ways to find more options to add to the list:
-are there any other quick bilge keelers?
-what fin keelers are suitable for wintering on legs? Out for a walk today I swear I saw a Bavaria on legs! I could bite the bullet and get a deep water mooring for summer use
-what other lift keel boats are suitable for taking to the ground? There are a lot of french lift keels, but I’m not sure how many are suitable for being kept on a tidal mooring (where my seal lives currently)

I might look into 6 month winter mooring in Falmouth as a “storage” option, although that would make maintenance a pain!

 

[Concerto]

I did suggest a Fulmar in post 5!!

Quite true, but being a Fulmar owner I tried to be helpful in suggesting in post #10 other bilge keel boats that could also be considered. I tried to not be blinkered that only the Fulmar would suit.

 

[Trevelyan]

Re-reading that post, how do the Moody bilge keelers compare with the Westerly bilge keelers in terms of sailing performance? I know very little about Moodys...

 

[roblpm]

Re-reading that post, how do the Moody bilge keelers compare with the Westerly bilge keelers in terms of sailing performance? I know very little about Moodys...

Slower i think. Have a look at the byron list. Nice boats but I don't think they are fast. My initial research led to the conclusion that it was fulmar or bust! Or a much newer French twin keel.......

I think some of the feelings had a grounding plate. Here is a thread i had running originally http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?367313-Parker-275-Drying-on-the-Forth which has some information from a guy on here who had a Feeling yacht. Even rarer than the Parkers as they are French.

 

[Tranona]

Moody owners will likely tell you that their boats outsail Westerlys and then of course a Sadler 29 owner will come along and say his boat is better than all of them!

Seriously though they all competed in the same market place for the same customers and the later boats had much better keels and the loss against their fin sisters was less than in earlier years. You have to remember that these boats were aimed at the family cruiser market so are not designed to be sprightly like the Parkers. It is also fair to say that some boats such as the Fulmar do seem to hit a sweet spot that endears them even more than usual to their owners.

 

[Concerto]

Parkers and the Fulmar are on the list for sure! Now thinking three ways to find more options to add to the list:
-are there any other quick bilge keelers?
-what fin keelers are suitable for wintering on legs? Out for a walk today I swear I saw a Bavaria on legs! I could bite the bullet and get a deep water mooring for summer use
-what other lift keel boats are suitable for taking to the ground? There are a lot of french lift keels, but I’m not sure how many are suitable for being kept on a tidal mooring (where my seal lives currently)

I might look into 6 month winter mooring in Falmouth as a “storage” option, although that would make maintenance a pain!

You have now changed the whole ball game and you will be given every possible choice from owners (past and present) who think their class of boat is perfect for you. My advice is to decide where you want to moor, drying or deep water. Then decide how important the sailing characteristics are compared to the accommodation, and then set your budget remembering to have about £5,000 for any remedial work or improvements. Then seek advice accordingly. Personally I prefer the performance of a fin keel and plan all of my destinations accordingly. In the past I have sailed with bilge keels but would never consider them again, so if you are a sailor then go fin with a deep water mooring.

Changing from a Seal 22 to anything 30 foot +/- 2 foot will be a massive change for you. Even changing from 28 foot to 32 foot is a big change. The weight of the boat, the power in the rig, the increase in boat speed, extra accommodation, etc. will be substantially different from your current boat. All are easy to adjust to with a little time. I presume you are looking only to cruise, not race. You may find the Parker's are faster than other craft, but I cannot comment other than seeing there ratings, but their ride quality may be another matter. The smaller and lighter the craft, the more it will bounce around in rough water.

I can vouch that a Fulmar can reach the Isles of Scilly straight from Falmouth as I did it singlehanded last summer in a SW 5-6. On my return I went straight to Salcombe using a NW 7. Certainly not an uncomfortable ride either way.

 

[Kelpie]

Vyv Cox has some good info on his website about using yacht legs- he uses a pair on a Sadler 34.
Your main limitation is likely to be draft for getting into your drying berth.

 

[GrahamM376]

Re-reading that post, how do the Moody bilge keelers compare with the Westerly bilge keelers in terms of sailing performance? I know very little about Moodys...

My only experience with Moody twin keelers is the 346, which is quite a fast boat. We won the club Midsummer cup one year, half an hour ahead of the closest boat.

 

[[3889]]

What a load of rubbish as you have obviously never sailed a Fulmar. When I chatted with Ed Dubois about a year before he died, he still considered the Fulmar to be be his most favourite design for balanced sailing. They were also used for international match racing. The bilge keel version Fulmar is not quite as fast as a fin, but certainly a lot better than many other similar sized bilge keel boat of the that period and within the OP's budget. According to Byron handicaps the Portsmouth number for a fin is 959 and a bilge is 1002. By comparison the Moody 31 bilge keel is 1047. Many people consider even the lowly Centaur to be sluggish, but so many are owned by people who cruise, not race, but have someone who can race well on board and they perform well.

The Fulmar is on the OP's list and should seriously be considered as it will meet his sailability and his wife's choice of interior space - and will be in his budget. The ¾ rig makes it very easy to handle. I know of lots of owners who have had theirs for over 15 years, and the answer is always the whole package is difficult to beat.

Maybe it's not so obvious that I haven't sailed a Fulmar as I've taught several DS courses on one. Bit disingenuous to compare a 26' Hunter to a 32' Fulmar - the more comparable Hunter Channel 31 outperforms the Fulmar on handicap (NCH) - not that I'm suggesting Hunters are fast, only that Westerlys will match the disappointment expressed by the OP re the Hunter 26. Not exactly revelatory to hear a boat's designer compliment his own creation, nor, for that matter, an owner doggedly defend their choice of boat.

 

[Trevelyan]

Moody 346 is very out of budget. I'd conveniently forgotten that there are hunters bigger than the horizon 27/272 etc, which presumably sail quite a lot better due to longer waterline length and not trying to squeeze quite so much accommodation out of such a small footprint.

Yes I'm probably opening this back up to quite broad suggestions, I guess
i) Ideally I'd stick with a lift keeler that doesn't mind drying out on springs, that way I could I keep using free mooring and winter layup...
...but looking unlikely to find a lift keel that offers the accommodation size and is happy drying out - I'm not sure if the french lift keels or Southerly etc are actually designed to be drying out routinely on hard (sand or earth) bottom
iii) Probably means I need to go to a bilge keeler - a case of finding the least-worst option performance-wise
iv)...unless there is an obvious fin/semi-long keeler which would sit well on legs in winter, in which case I could put my hand in my pocket for a deep water summer mooring

I am yet to look at all this NHC handicap business, another set of figures on top of the PY...
...Still welcoming new suggestions!

 

[Concerto]

Maybe it's not so obvious that I haven't sailed a Fulmar as I've taught several DS courses on one. Bit disingenuous to compare a 26' Hunter to a 32' Fulmar - the more comparable Hunter Channel 31 outperforms the Fulmar on handicap (NCH) - not that I'm suggesting Hunters are fast, only that Westerlys will match the disappointment expressed by the OP re the Hunter 26. Not exactly revelatory to hear a boat's designer compliment his own creation, nor, for that matter, an owner doggedly defend their choice of boat.

It is good to hear you have sailed Fulmars in the past. But I would ask why were they used for sail training and racing? Your reply would be interesting, as when they were introduced in 1980 I raced against them for a number of years and they performed well in most conditions.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I compare the Fulmar to the 26' Hunter. The only post that contains a mention to both the Fulmar and Hunter 26 was made by Trevelyan - the originator of this thread. Not only have you attributed the comment to me, but you have also misquoted him. See post #13.

You have now suggested the more recently designed Hunter Channel 31, but a quick check shows it well outside the OP's top budget. https://www.michaelschmidt.co.uk/boatdetails.asp?boatid=6497854 Your comment as to their rating will probably be for a fin version, but Byron do not even quote any rating for the Hunter Channel 31. So no direct open comparison is available.

So try and be more accurate with your comments and helpful to Trevelyan, the OP.

 

[Trevelyan]

Still thinking of the golden goose of a lift keel that will meet my needs...How about the Gibsea 282 lift keel, or Kelt 8.50 folks? Looking at the Kelt, I don't think think it is designed for routinely taking to the ground. Looking at the Gibsea 282 it looks more so, although I'd still be a bit worried about the propshaft. The Gibsea seems to have quite decent accommodation for the size of the boat.... wonder how it compares with the Parker 27/275?

 

[Brent Swain]

On my current boat, the decision between single and twin keels was a tough one.
After 34 years of mostly full time cruising, I am sure glad I went for twin keels. 34 years without paying moorage, and only two haul outs, both in Tonga, only because the tidal range was not big enough to dry out, and I had 4,000 miles of windward sailing ahead of me.
On a heavily loaded 31 ft steel twin keeler ,23 days from Hawaii to BC ,the first half hard on the wind, is not particularly slow.
I have seen some designs with spade, "Fig leaf" rudders, no skeg, extremely vulnerable on a twin keeler, with nothing in front of it to take the impact of any floating object , or uncharted rock, in the night.
As keels got shorter and narrower, they began to fall off far to regularly.
Very high aspect twin keels on a cruising boat are a bad idea, for this reason.
Bulbs on the bottom, and any keels which protrude aft, will snag any anchor rode which goes between them, almost impossible to unsnag on a rough, windy night .

 

[Tranona]

As keels got shorter and narrower, they began to fall off far to regularly.

Please provide documented evidence to support this statement.

If you cannot provide evidence then suggest you stop making such statements.

 

[roblpm]

Still thinking of the golden goose of a lift keel that will meet my needs...How about the Gibsea 282 lift keel, or Kelt 8.50 folks? Looking at the Kelt, I don't think think it is designed for routinely taking to the ground. Looking at the Gibsea 282 it looks more so, although I'd still be a bit worried about the propshaft. The Gibsea seems to have quite decent accommodation for the size of the boat.... wonder how it compares with the Parker 27/275?

I just had a look. There dont seem to be any for sale! From memory some have open plan forecabin. The parker has a door! If you pm me I think I have some kelt/feeling magazine reviews I can email you.