Ideal Med boat size? (Any hard size related costs)?

[gregcope]

Hi

Idle thought around what the Ideal boat size is in the med for a couple? Obviously going bigger != better at some point.

Is there any hard marina cost cutover in Greece, France or Italy? ie above 12M things become very much more expensive?

Thinking about something in the 40ft plus mark, around 10 years old ish AWB.

 

[Mistroma]

Hi

Idle thought around what the Ideal boat size is in the med for a couple? Obviously going bigger != better at some point.

Is there any hard marina cost cutover in Greece, France or Italy? ie above 12M things become very much more expensive?

Thinking about something in the 40ft plus mark, around 10 years old ish AWB.

The really obvious one for Greece is the TEPAI. Length 10-12m is 33 euro / month and above 12m it's 8 euro / metre / month.

A 12m boat is 188 euro and a 12.01m boat is 576.48 euro for 6 months TEPAI. Remember that it's calendar month and launch on 30th April with lift on 1st October counts as 7 months for just 5 months sailing.

Pretty certain that 12.01m boats will be harder to find in Greece than unicorns. I'd suggest spending 10 minutes with a file or hammer if you do buy one of these. Or just re-register it at 12m if only on SSR.

I think quite a few yards also increase prices for lifts above 12M but have found storage is usually per metre, so just a pro-rata increase.

 

[vyv_cox]

Your ideal and my ideal may be totally different. When we first began sailing a cruising boat it was held that the ideal size yacht for a couple was 35 ft. That's what we bought 30 years ago, in the Med for 20 of them and never wanted anything bigger.

We have met first time buyers with 55 ft boats, terrified to enter harbours because they couldn't handle it. Why anyone would want 55 ft for two people remains a mystery.

Maybe 37 ft would give us a little more stowage, we have always carried a lot of kit, but no plans to change.

 

[Tranona]

Hi

Idle thought around what the Ideal boat size is in the med for a couple? Obviously going bigger != better at some point.

Is there any hard marina cost cutover in Greece, France or Italy? ie above 12M things become very much more expensive?

Thinking about something in the 40ft plus mark, around 10 years old ish AWB.

Generally marina costs are per metre, but some in the western Med charge by berth size for permanent longer term contracts. As Mistroma says, the cruising tax in Greece penalises 12m+. other costs, maintenance, replacements etc usually increase with size, but once you have a boat in good condition these are not a major cost compared with mooring costs.

In terms of size for comfortable living for 2 people and occasional guests 36-40' is fine in my experience, having owned a Bavaria 37 for around 10 years in the Med. We chose that because it was a good deal from the factory and it had high earning potential as a charter boat. It was however a "small" 37 in terms of interior because it had twin aft cabins which meant a cramped loo and saloon. The slightly longer, but wider 38 of the period was a much bigger boat.

The ideal is the a 2 cabin boat in that size range, but if you are buying in the Med they are less common. Although the 3 main builders follow much the same format in interior and cockpit layouts there is enough difference to make one feel more like you could live with than others. What is valuable though is to do a couple of charters to get some experience of what it is like living in hot climates. Actual sailing performance is of less importance, partly because you won't be able to do much serious sailing except in a few of the windier areas like the Aegean and all the mainstream boats are capable of dealing with the conditions.

 

[gregcope]

Your ideal and my ideal may be totally different. When we first began sailing a cruising boat it was held that the ideal size yacht for a couple was 35 ft. That's what we bought 30 years ago, in the Med for 20 of them and never wanted anything bigger.

I get that. We own a 35ft in the UK.

We are looking for something that is realistically a floating caravan to live/stay on.

 

[gregcope]

Generally marina costs are per metre, but some in the western Med charge by berth size for permanent longer term contracts. As Mistroma says, the cruising tax in Greece penalises 12m+. other costs, maintenance, replacements etc usually increase with size, but once you have a boat in good condition these are not a major cost compared with mooring costs.

In terms of size for comfortable living for 2 people and occasional guests 36-40' is fine in my experience, having owned a Bavaria 37 for around 10 years in the Med. We chose that because it was a good deal from the factory and it had high earning potential as a charter boat. It was however a "small" 37 in terms of interior because it had twin aft cabins which meant a cramped loo and saloon. The slightly longer, but wider 38 of the period was a much bigger boat.

The ideal is the a 2 cabin boat in that size range, but if you are buying in the Med they are less common. Although the 3 main builders follow much the same format in interior and cockpit layouts there is enough difference to make one feel more like you could live with than others. What is valuable though is to do a couple of charters to get some experience of what it is like living in hot climates. Actual sailing performance is of less importance, partly because you won't be able to do much serious sailing except in a few of the windier areas like the Aegean and all the mainstream boats are capable of dealing with the conditions.

Thanks for that.

Having been on a few charters already I am familiar with what it can be like. Hot. Very hot. Sometimes windy. Sometimes heavy rain. But mostly hot. Shade, long benches and an open cockpit with easy access to swim being a requirement Sailing is secondary.

Hence the idea for a 10 year old AWB. Big as is reasonable. Something nice to live on. Nice to be at anchor on. Occasionally sail it. Probably motor allot.

 

[Tranona]

You should be able to get a twin wheeled boat at that age. My choice (I am biased obviously!) would be a 2015 or thereabouts Bav 37 2 cabin. I had the 33 of the same style and age here, but If we had stayed in the med would have got a 37. The drop down transom is a real plus, although needs a bit of care mooring stern to compared with an older style walk through. Very easy boat to live with. light and airy, good stowage and does sail very well should you get the opportunity.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Hi

Idle thought around what the Ideal boat size is in the med for a couple? Obviously going bigger != better at some point.

Is there any hard marina cost cutover in Greece, France or Italy? ie above 12M things become very much more expensive?

Thinking about something in the 40ft plus mark, around 10 years old ish AWB.

Hi Greg,

Interesting thread, I'm thinking of doing the similar (albeit power not sail) for a couple of years time.

How many of you? If you're just a couple all/most of the time, maybe with occasional visitors, then the two cabin 37/38' would be probably be ideal. As suggested by Tranona, the drop-transom models make life easy, we've just had a charter on one in Croatia and it worked a treat for access and swimming etc. That size / layout may only have single heads of course. Not a problem if you're happy to share but some may find it limiting. If there will regularly be more than 4 then I'd want to be in the 41-44' range, two reasonable aft cabins and two heads and a notably bigger cockpit.

 

[gregcope]

Just a couple with occasional guests. Like the idea of a bigger cockpit. Not bothered by only one heads. A shower alcove in thr heads would be good

 

[ashtead]

One thing you might want to consider in your search is size of fridge -those on Dufour 375 seem large with linear galley even if the forecabin is offset so an acquired taste.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Just a couple with occasional guests. Like the idea of a bigger cockpit. Not bothered by only one heads. A shower alcove in thr heads would be good

OK, you will probably be fine with something in the 37’ range. Fat cockpit twin wheel, two or three cabin AWB from any of the mainstream manufacturers. Personal preference for Bavaria but you should look at them all. Bav Cruiser 37 for example….


Bavaria 37 Cruiser 2015 Used Boat for Sale in Dalmatia

 

[Marceline]

out of interest - noticed the mention

"Actual sailing performance is of less importance, partly because you won't be able to do much serious sailing except in a few of the windier areas like the Aegean and all the mainstream boats are capable of dealing with the conditions."

are nordic style motorsailers a common (or viable) option in the Med ? especially if they have a shallow draft to be able to also go through the French canals

 

[Travelling Westerly]

Whatever you buy make sure and I cant say it enough, make sure you don't buy anything with a teak deck!
We have a new way of measuring the temp out here in the Med, it's now measured by how 'melty' the caulking has got and how much mess it's made on clothes, decks and by how much of it has got into the cabin and on the fenders etc etc the list goes on.....

 

[Marceline]

heck - that doens't sound good

noted and will avoid Teak decks (thankfully one we're considering doesn't have one)

 

[duncan99210]

We’ve got a Bavaria 38, which comes in at 11.95m. We’ve found it to be a pretty good compromise between size and cost, squeaking in under the 12m length. Twin aft cabin layout but one aft cabin is the “shed” with all the stuff you need to live on board….
The nordic motorcruisers suffer from smaller cockpits and greenhouses for saloons in the summer months. Friends of ours had a Nauticat which was a lovely boat apart from the fact that it was roasting in the summer: small cockpit often dictated moving into the saloon which with its large windows then became uncomfortably hot….
I‘d endorse what’s been said about teak decks. Not only does the caulking suffer from fairly rapid breakdown in the sun, they become uncomfortably hot in the sun, which drives you to wearing shoes of some sort all the time. Bad enough in the cockpit (where you get shade from the Bimini) pure murder on the side decks.

 

[Tranona]

out of interest - noticed the mention

"Actual sailing performance is of less importance, partly because you won't be able to do much serious sailing except in a few of the windier areas like the Aegean and all the mainstream boats are capable of dealing with the conditions."

are nordic style motorsailers a common (or viable) option in the Med ? especially if they have a shallow draft to be able to also go through the French canals

Only with a minority who migrate from northern climes to the med, and usually regret their choice!. They are built for Scandinavia, not hot climates so are strong on things like double insulated windows but short on big cockpits, easy access to the sea or land and good light wind performance. Most have teak decks, and although the quality ones last better than the cheap stuff on cheaper boats, they, and the wheelhouses/deck saloons make the insides hot and stuffy. Apart from going through the canals shallow draft has no advantages in most of the Med.

While lots of "northern" boats ended up in the Med in years past because that is what folks had, but if you are buying specifically for use out there like the OP an AWB of 36-40' is the best bet for those of modest means.

 

[Marceline]

thanks Tranona and helpful to know

 

[Travelling Westerly]

the quality ones last better than the cheap stuff on cheaper boats

Cheap stuff/teak decks? Is there a cheaper type of teak available other than the obvious vaneered stuff?

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Sailing in Greece during summer time, June, July, August, the boat should have a big accessible cockpit and a big main cabin to make it easier with the hot temperatures. But, the same boat during the Etesian seasonal winds, sailing in the Aegean, may be less suitable in the open seas, bearing in mind that the winds will be blowing from midday for 6 to 9 hours blowing 20 to 40 knots. From September onwards it is wet, windy and cold especially in the Aegean, so the boat has to be suitable for this weather too.
The Ionian is more forgiving, apart from the sudden storms that can last for a couple of hours and all hell breaks loose. So, choosing a boat to suit the hot season, it may be too much of a compromise unless you go to Greece/Med during summers only.
In terms of boat length, in my opinion, anything more than 38 ft, is costly in every way and more difficult to get in and out of marinas etc. As others suggest, not a good idea to have teak decks.

 

[dgadee]

2 loos if you have guests I would suggest.