Icy Marina pontoons

[Deleted member 36384]

Is the danger of ice in cold weather (shock horror probe) any worse than the danger of water immediately beside the pontoons? Should marinas be forced to erect fences along both side of pontoons, with gates to allow access to boats?

They provide a service that allows pontoon access to boats and as such are required to maintain this access in safe manner and take reasonable steps to check that it is safe.

Searush states "FFS, it's icy - so it will be slippy. Geddit? It's not rocket science" so the marina should be aware that its icy on their pontoons and do something about.

Berth holders pay good money for this service and should not accept this. Some marinas jet wash slime away as it builds over the year, so they should treat ice build up to remove the risk.

I would not be surprised if a marina entity was attributed blame if they did not grit the pontoons and someone was injured as a result of a fall if a claim was made.

 

[Searush]

I am Gobsmacked as to how much "hand-holding" people require these days.

Sure Marinas are dear, but they provide a lot of expensive infrastructure & employ a number of expensive people. You lot talk as if you should have a personal sedan chair to carry you to your boat!!

My Dad used to sit in front of a roaring fire in the winter & then ask us kids to "Push me back, I'm burning" but he was taking the pee. Then again maybe you lot are just teasing me too?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I am Gobsmacked as to how much "hand-holding" people require these days.

Its not hand holding, access is a service that is being paid for. So they should address basic access conditions, its not rocket science, nor is expecting safe access on their pontoons.

I have seen pontoon access denied in extreme wind conditions because the the pontoons were bucking about. This is no different, they should address the ice issue for their clients.

I am Gobsmacked that you find this attitude towards expectations as namby pandy, ffs, is this why the British service industry is held in low esteem?

 

[Searush]

(snip)
I am Gobsmacked that you find this attitude towards expectations as namby pandy, ffs, is this why the British service industry is held in low esteem?

TBH, when I ran a small charitable bike recycling unit, I made sure we offered a better service than ANY bike shop in the area - even those that charged thousands for their wares. AND I personally swept the forecourt clear of snow in the winter so it wouldn't ice up because I wouldn't expect volunteers to do what I wouldn't. However, I'd have been surprised if my clients "demanded" or expected it.

Maybe when marinas have more empty berths they will need to do more for berthholders, which would be nice. But people still need to take responsibility for their own actions. A pontoon is essentially a fairly dangerous place & not one where I would expect someone else to be able to remove all the risks for me. It's tantamount to making conker players wear goggles, hard hat & golves!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... A pontoon is essentially a fairly dangerous place & not one where I would expect someone else to be able to remove all the risks for me. It's tantamount to making conker players wear goggles, hard hat & golves!

I agree with personal responsibility and the point you make but I believe that marinas should make best endeavours to make pontoons slip free so that users dont have to "wear goggles, hard hat & gloves!", we may actually be violently agreeing here!

 

[elton]

If the marina has a sign at the entrance saying "Warning: Pontoons may be slippery." I think that absolves them of responsibility for anyone's stupidity in assuming they would be anything other than slippery. Perhaps some people still need their mummy with them.

 

[Marmalade]

I am Gobsmacked that you find this attitude towards expectations as namby pandy, ffs, is this why the British service industry is held in low esteem?

I can kind of agree with you about the customer-service angle. But I'm with Searush generally on this.

If I fall over surely it's my own fault. If the surface is slippery; I shouldn't walk on it; if a pavement is uneven, I should watch where I'm going; If someone has left a banana skin on the floor I should walk around it.

Perish the thought that I might take personal responsibility for my own safety and make choices about what's an acceptable risk and what's not.

oops - posts crossed;

 

[tinkicker0]

They provide a service that allows pontoon access to boats and as such are required to maintain this access in safe manner and take reasonable steps to check that it is safe.

Searush states "FFS, it's icy - so it will be slippy. Geddit? It's not rocket science" so the marina should be aware that its icy on their pontoons and do something about.

Berth holders pay good money for this service and should not accept this. Some marinas jet wash slime away as it builds over the year, so they should treat ice build up to remove the risk.

I would not be surprised if a marina entity was attributed blame if they did not grit the pontoons and someone was injured as a result of a fall if a claim was made.

As a (part time) elfin safety man, Taking your post to its logical conclusion, I would specify fitting overhead wires and insisting all pontoon walkers wear a full harness and should be clipped on to the overhead at all times.
This is because hundreds of people have slipped on pontoons and fallen in.

However I would not advocate this because it is not REASONABLY PRACTICABLE. Neither is putting salt down on icy pontoons where it will melt the snow or rime ice, get washed off and refreeze into black ice, while looking safe.
Far better that the punter makes an informed decision to walk on it or not by assessing the risks to his person and the observed condition of the walkway.
He does have a choice.

Not often we disagree BoB, but in this case we do.

 

[trapezeartist]

Thank God for Searush: a beacon of common sense in a sea of health-and-safety, ambulance-chasing, risk-assessment, duty-of-care lunacy.

It snowed. It's cold. Of course the pontoons are going to be slippery. Walk accordingly. Or crawl accordingly. Or don't go on the pontoons. It's your choice.

As it happens, our marina did salt the pontoons. I don't see that as an obligation or a duty of care. They decided to do it as a service to their customers. I'm grateful to them for that although it didn't work anyway.

Having tottered slowly and carefully to the boat, taking care to stay in the middle of the pontoons and prepared to flatten ourselves onto the pontoon should we fall, we had a major task washing down the icy decks with salt water to clear them. It takes an awful lot of salt water at 5º to melt ice at -1º.

 

[Seajet]

So what choice, pray, does the liveaboard, or someone who happens to be staying aboard that day / night have ?

I am all for taking responsibility for my actions, but I think it reasonable that steps are taken by the marina to keep their service as safe as possible.

I had to smile at the comment 'expensive staff' ! At a large well known marina near my mooring, a club member went in before our hoist out weekend to have his large mast taken down.

He had to wait some hours, as the marina had to 'get a professional in', none of their staff being capable - despite the eye-watering fees, and very officious directions if one asks for a visitors berth...

As I mentioned a while ago, another marina nearby has claimed 3 lives - in winter - that I know of, so probably more by now; I don't really think paying shedloads of cash for a berth should involve the potential death penalty if one has to access one's boat.

If gritted ice is going to re-freeze, it needs re-gritting, not too taxing a job.

There might also be something in rigging lines at pontoon edges as temporary 'guardrails' in icy conditions; if that and / or gritting is 'leaving the management open to lawsuits' then maybe they could ask bertholders to sign a waiver ? I'm sure most people would appreciate any efforts made.

 

[tinkicker0]

So what choice, pray, does the liveaboard, or someone who happens to be staying aboard that day / night have ?

The liveaboard has the same choice as anyone else. Walk on the pontoon, noting that it looks very slippery and taking all due care. Or not. If he really needs to, he can crawl on hands and knees or wear suitable footwear.

A year or two back, I went to me boat and the river had risen, the pontoons were at the top of the pylons and the end of the access ramp was underwater by a good few feet.

I had a choice:

1. Access the boat by swimming to the ramp.
2. Get back in my car and go home.

I looked at the river, got in my car and went home.

Should the marina have provided a ferry service to the pontoon?

Should the marina spend many thousands altering the pontoon so I can access it no matter how hight the river?

Or should we exercise common sense and be prepared to either take a small gamble or walk away, a few odd days a year?

If gritted ice is going to re-freeze, it needs re-gritting, not too taxing a job.
Fine, are you prepared to get up every hour during the night to check if it has been washed off and reapply the grit? Or be prepared to pay the wages of a man whose job is grit patrol all night? The marina is empty, you are the liveaboard, why should everyone else pay?


This nanny state H&S lawsuit culture the legal eagles have manufactured for their own benefit is killing this country and it's high time it stopped.
This is coming from an H&S man who is supposedly the villain of the piece, but in reality is forced to act against his own judgement and common sense.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

If I owned a Marina I would grit the pontoons (probably with sand) and clear them of snow so that my clients can go about their business without the additional risk of slipping on ice. I would also periodically apply lime (or whatever the chemical is that they use) to the slipway so that my clients that chose to launch their own boats didn't have to do so on slippy weed (this was a practice carried out at an Outdoor Education Centre that I worked for).

This would be done not because I think they need their mothers or have lobotomies but because it supports the service that I am providing them, convenient alongside berthing / launching; similarly it would be why I inspect the access ramp periodically for structural failure risks.

Independently of this I believe, with no experience or factual knowledge, that the balance of blame is likely to sit with a Marina if I slipped on ice, on their pontoon and lobotomised myself on a pontoon cleat.

 

[tinkicker0]

Sorry Bob, not true. In gritting the pontoons you risk a contributory negligence lawsuit if you gritted them.

Virgin snow or ice is not put there by the marina, therefore they are not culpable. Nature is.

They remove this ice and snow and it then refreezes, they have not done the job properly or it would not refreeze, therefore they are negligent.

It would have to be a pretty sad individual who sued in these circumstances, but I meet them all the time in my job.

Someone hires a trials bike, they ride over rocks, they fall off, they break a leg, they phone national scammer helpline as soon as they get home. I tell national scammer helpline why they should go play with the traffic.

Fair play to your customer service ethos though.

 

[Seajet]

Tinkicker0,

Having a pontoon underwater is hardly normal - if it is, you might think about moving !

A liveaboard, whether for 1 night or a year, cannot jump in a car, but has a right to the access they have paid for.

Your suggestion of an all night vigil and patrol is making a mockery of your argument.

Blowing Old Boots,

Refreshing to hear sanity.
A common sense approach, providing a safe service to customers, is all that anyone asks.

If you want to wear a hair shirt Tinkicker,go and join the SBS, meanwhile this is the 21st century...

 

[tinkicker0]

Tinkicker0,

Having a pontoon underwater is hardly normal - if it is, you might think about moving !

A liveaboard, whether for 1 night or a year, cannot jump in a car, but has a right to the access they have paid for.

Your suggestion of an all night vigil and patrol is making a mockery of your argument.

Blowing Old Boots,

Refreshing to hear sanity.
A common sense approach, providing a safe service to customers, is all that anyone asks.

If you want to wear a hair shirt Tinkicker,go and join the SBS, meanwhile this is the 21st century...

Having an iced up pontoon is hardly normal in this country. taken over the last 20 years, probably an average of 10 days at the most in every 365.

You can still exercise your right of access, no one has denied you, but you do it at your own risk, just like crossing a busy road to your front door or a slippy pavement.

If you don't want to listen to the professional argument fine, we will agree to differ.

I too think pontoons should be gritted and pavements. I also think the person doing it should be regarded as doing it in the public interest and be free of fear of litigation from the lawyers. However at the moment, if the gritter is viewed to have acted unreasonably and made matters worse, he can be sued. Period.

 

[Seajet]

You're professional at arguing ?

I suppose that would figure, common sense doesn't enter the equation.

Yes we agree to differ all right.

 

[RUSSH]

Tinkicker0

A liveaboard, whether for 1 night or a year, cannot jump in a car, but has a right to the access they have paid for.

Get a taxi to your alternative accommodation if it's not safe to use the pontoons or take the risk.

I pay my rates and taxes but when snow and ice blocks the road home I have a choice. Make the journey regardless of risk or improvise , adapt and overcome by making an alternative arrangement.

Makes me wonder how people manage when they cast off from a pontoon!

 

[tinkicker0]

You're professional at arguing ?

I suppose that would figure, common sense doesn't enter the equation.

Yes we agree to differ all right.

The mark of a lost debate. Sorry you feel the need to be sarcastic. I would be wrong if I did not put the facts across.
If those facts disturb you, not my fault.

Should pavements be gritted in my opinion? - hell yes.

Can you be sued if you acted unreasonably and made conditions worse, leading to injury? hell yes.

Don't blame me, blame the very lawyers you would undoubtedly run to if you had a slip and injured yourself.

 

[Seajet]

And what, Oh incredibly tough and wise sailor, is this 'alternative accomodation' then ?

Your argument is about the same as 'if caught in heavy weather, one should of course beam oneself ashore by teleporter' !

I'm saying I think iced up pontoons are dangerous, and something should be done when this happens; and I can get around just fine in my boat to and from pontons, I usually manage with just a couple of dories as tugs, those and the bow-thruster get me out to the pilot boat to stay alongside all the way...

There is a real world out there, where people do not - or should not - take stupid risks just because someone providing a service can't bother to do it properly. As I said, if bothered about the legal side, have a waiver signed.

BTW I'm not the type who'd run to lawyers, unless I had a knife in my hand...END.

 

[Searush]

So what choice, pray, does the liveaboard, or someone who happens to be staying aboard that day / night have ?

(snip)

You have the same choices as any pensioner in her home - stay in bed if you can't cope with icy weather - but don't expect some other poor slob to have to look after you.

I can't believe how much looking after some people seem to need. Who wipes your bum for you? The funny thing is that many of the people with these attitudes seem to be the ones that expect the long term unemployed to start up their own businesses! I suppose they could clean the ice off your pontoon, but would you pay them?