Melody
Well-Known Member
For the past couple of years RYA certificates also have a photo, a hologram to protect against forgery, and several languages on the back, including Greek.
ICC
- Thread starter 1bobt
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For the past couple of years RYA certificates also have a photo, a hologram to protect against forgery, and several languages on the back, including Greek.
Melody
Well-Known Member
It's possible to get an ICC test at most RYA recognised training centres. Just involves a practical sailing test with MOB, alongside etc. plus an oral or written theory test. Not at all difficult for experienced sailors and takes half a day.
By the way, since last year the RYA is keeping a central record of all certificates issued (apart from Comp Crew). Schools log the student's details, date or passing course, certificate number etc. online onto the RYA database. If you lose your certificate now, your first step should be to approach the school where you passed but, if they can't help for any reason, the RYA should now be able to trace you and re-issue the lost certificates.
I think the new photo-ID style Day and Coastal Skipper certs are making the ICC redundant for those that have them. I certainly advise people not to bother as I have never heard of anyone in Greece not accepting an RYA certificate.
By the way, since last year the RYA is keeping a central record of all certificates issued (apart from Comp Crew). Schools log the student's details, date or passing course, certificate number etc. online onto the RYA database. If you lose your certificate now, your first step should be to approach the school where you passed but, if they can't help for any reason, the RYA should now be able to trace you and re-issue the lost certificates.
I think the new photo-ID style Day and Coastal Skipper certs are making the ICC redundant for those that have them. I certainly advise people not to bother as I have never heard of anyone in Greece not accepting an RYA certificate.
grafozz
Well-Known Member
We have just returned from an 8 week cruise around the Cyclades and had no requests at all for ICC,
in fact only once were we even asked for Dekra , in Syros ,
where the Port Police were absolutely delightful !
in fact only once were we even asked for Dekra , in Syros ,
where the Port Police were absolutely delightful !
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Once you have that, which implies creating a register for all boats, the authorities have a comprehensive list to use to introduce boat taxation, as they have done in France.
hartcjhart
Well-Known Member
not really, the licence/certificate would be for the person just like a car licence,which does not entail you havung to register a car
Tranona
Well-Known Member
But still an unnecessary expense that is not justified - unless of course you can provide clear documented evidence that compulsory licencing will bring quantifiable benefits through reduction in accidents, saving lives, reduction in material damage.
Look forward to seeing your data!
hartcjhart
Well-Known Member
data would be hard to find and you know it,but, if you look at other areas where licencing has been introduced safety has improved greatly
cars
motorbikes
flying
etc etc
Tranona
Well-Known Member
No, it is not hard to find. Various sources - RNLI, MCA, MAIB, coroners courts. However, it does not show a significant level of incidents, nor is the number growing, but declining. None of the organisations (in possession of the data) and responsible for safety are in favour of compulsory licencing. Not one of the MAIB reports into incidents involving leisure yachts identifies lack of competence as a causal factor, nor recommends licencing. Some incidents involving small motorboats have identified inexperience as a factor and recommended encouraging people to take the readily available training.
Comparisons with cars, bikes and flying do not help because the context is completely different. After the introduction of car licences in the 1930s, accidents and death rates rose dramatically in line with increased activity. It is only in the last 20 years that death and injury rates have fallen, not because of testing drivers - most only take one simple test in their whole life - but because of better roads, better vehicles and improved emergency services.
Suggest you have a look at the statistics in other countries that have licencing and see if you can find a safer environment than the UK.
So, first you have to show that there is a "problem" - and nobody who knows anything about the subject has found one, then you have to find the causes and show how your "solution" removes the causes.
In the absence of any hard data to support your argument it remains a personal opinion.
hartcjhart
Well-Known Member
so your quotes have substatiated what I think,sailer types are not he real problem AND I have not said they are but the power peeps are,
I am surprised that the bodies you have quoted are happy to have a eejit that doesnt know a spade from a shovel,able to buy a powerboat of 10/20 metres plus and just race around without a care in the world until they hit you,BUT hey ho that is what you want
P.S my nephew is a lifeboatman on the south west coast and he thinks the same way as me
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jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
I think you'll find fatalities occur not with 10/20m power boats, but more with small craft, both powered and not powered. Some of these are, of course, tenders to larger craft. Journeys to and from a boat moored off are a particular hazard, with many a slip when boarding or leaving the tender causing hypothermia or worse.
Licensing doesn't touch these very real hazards, which are matters of experience and education, too detailed for license testing. Design for safety does. How many boats have boarding ladders permanently fitted so that a person in the water can always lower the ladder to climb back aboard if they fall in?
There are much better ways to tackle waterborne leisure injury and death rates (which are low, any way, compared to equestrian rates) than compulsory licensing.
Now, where's my horse riding license . . .
And that wretched cycle riding license . . .
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vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Plus I believe it has been demonstrated many times that boating accident rates in UK are considerably lower than in countries where compulsory licensing is enforced.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Precisely why you need to look at the statistics. As Jim says where you see the problem there is not a problem. While it may seem strange that people are allowed to use such boats without a licence, there is little evidence that they are involved in, or cause accidents any more than any other users. The vast majority of people who can afford to buy such boats are successful, responsible people and take their boating seriously. If you read the MAIB reports over the last 15 years or so, you will find very few motor cruisers involved in serious incidents. The most common incidents involve small power boats and RIBs - and there is arguably a case for restrictions on the use of such boats, but not enough to justify compulsory licencing for everyone. On the other hand if you look at the US where licencing is normal and there are vastly more of that type of boat (small power boat) there is a far higher accident rate than here. In the UK the biggest single cause of boating related fatalities is related to the use of tenders so if licencing were needed that is the place to start - although compulsory wearing of lifejackets would likely be more successful in reducing fatalities.
And, no, nobody wants to be hit by a big power boat - but then it is such a rare occurrence (can't think of a single reported incident) it does not give cause for concern.
nortada
Well-Known Member
Fact Or Just A WAG?
Really & where do we find the data to support this claim?
To have any credibility it has to be expressed as accidents against number of active boats in that country (not those in back gardens or tied up year-in year-out) & possibly total sea-miles traveled. To the best of my knowledge the UK has no register to provide these details.
Bit like the claim that Britain has the best NHS in the world, only to be disproved when folk experience other country's health care.
Really & where do we find the data to support this claim?
To have any credibility it has to be expressed as accidents against number of active boats in that country (not those in back gardens or tied up year-in year-out) & possibly total sea-miles traveled. To the best of my knowledge the UK has no register to provide these details.
Bit like the claim that Britain has the best NHS in the world, only to be disproved when folk experience other country's health care.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I made it pretty clear that it was not I who made the statement. I can only tell you that it has been posted on these pages several times.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You are partly right. The data is difficult to analyse even if you can get it reliably, but there is very good data available from the US coastguard where reporting of incidents is compulsory and it does show a very high rate of accidents using the measures they use. However, comparisons are very difficult because not only is the context different but the reporting categories reflect that context rather than ours. They are able to use state registration figures as a proxy for usage. What it does show is the high accident rate (however measured) in the small powerboat category and the lowest rates in saltwater based sailing boats. Not unexpected and reflects the mix here, although such statistics as there are in the UK do not take into account usage as even a proxy of boats in use is not possible.
Even if the data were available, there are so many factors which vary from country to country and even year to year that any comparison above general observation is impossible.
That is why you have to start the other way round and analyse the causes of incidents, although again this is difficult because the reporting categories used by the RNLI and MCA do not emphasise causes, concentrating rather on types of users and simple categories like engine breakdown etc. But when you read the detailed reports on major incidents - as I suggested earlier, you do not find lack of competence reported as a causal factor. This does not mean there are not incompetent people on the water, as we all know, but it does suggest that it is not the major issue some would have us believe.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
We have good data on the numbers of people participating in various water sport activities from nationwide surveys going back a decade. What we don't have is the means of matching death and injury rates to the types of boats, since there is no compulsory reporting system other than inspecting coroner's reports! And the reason for this is that, apart from drowning, on which stats are gathered (about 200 pa over the whole population) there are not enough events to warrant further investigation. Drowning, of course, covers events from seaside holidays, river and canal swims or accidents, duck ponds, garden ponds, swimming pool events. Stuff which 30% of the population is exposed to.
Back of envelope and memory stuff now . . .
less than 1% of the population regularly cruises. They're better educated in water safety than your average holidaymaker, but ignoring that, we'd only expect 1/30 of those drownings to be related to cruising boats. That's 7 pa.
To check the real killers, have a look at [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/nov/02/causes-of-death-mortality-rates[/URL]
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nortada
Well-Known Member
toad
Well-Known Member
Most of the info is on the Gov web site. Seems to be mostly tenders and canoes that are a problem. This is for 2011http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/MAIB_Annual_Report_2011.pdf
1bobt
N/A
Well I started this thread and some on here have got them selfs worked up
I can tell you that both Poros and Aegina port police dont give a toss and are not interested in ICC the same position that they have taken for the last 19 years ......
I can tell you that both Poros and Aegina port police dont give a toss and are not interested in ICC the same position that they have taken for the last 19 years ......
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Thanks for digging that out Toad. Very useful. 8 deaths (all by drowning) related to motor cruisers, sail cruisers, and tenders to these vessels in that year. And several of them probably rescue-able if there had been a boarding ladder which could have been lowered from the water, or a buoyancy aid being worn.
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