hartcjhart
Well-Known Member
training and licencing(certification) go hand in hand AFAIK in th UK,standards seem to vary in europe,but some countries are now getting their act together slowly slowly
ICC
- Thread starter 1bobt
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training and licencing(certification) go hand in hand AFAIK in th UK,standards seem to vary in europe,but some countries are now getting their act together slowly slowly
Steve C Cronin
N/A
His realisation and dis-illusionment came after his appointment to those exhalted positions, I assume.
macd
Well-Known Member
A tad disingenuous. He probably enjoys sailing. He perhaps wants to pass on some of his skills to others. Or maybe he just makes his living that way. In either case, good luck to him -- and what other options does he have?
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Oooops! Sorry about that- engage fact checks before writing!!
Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
+1
Legislation is too often based on opinion, created by lobbies of folk with financial interests, rather than evidence
Steve C Cronin
N/A
I can agree with that.
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
+1 and of course we all know that legislating "solves" real or imagined problems - dream on - but it does make the legislators feel good about themselves.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
I get an automatic reminder for the ICC - but then I don't have one of those RYA certificates, mine was BoT.
The detailed specific requirements for reporting in Greek waters are (in order of priority) DEKPA, insurance certificate, boat registration documents, proof of competence.
Most of the Liminikos Soma are friendly, tolerant and helpful. They are bedevilled by a a confused and multi-paper system and they're all on the qui-vive to justify their numbers in the face of the troika determination to force the Greek government to cut their civil-service numbers. So far the troika have had lots of promises and seen no actions - the next few tranches of the release will be marked by increasing turns of the screw.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
If there are no laws or rules requiring something then it is not legally required. Absence of a law doesn't give random people the right to make up their own laws!
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
EDIT: Point already conceded in post 44 so this post was needless!
Rules here:
http://live.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2011/sc3wp3/ECE-TRANS-SC3-147-re1e.pdf
Complete text of original pre-edit post in case anyone cares:
Nope, a renewal period of some kind is required by UNCLOS but it does not have to be 5 years, it could be 100 years. [1] We don't know why the 5 year period was chosen but a cynic might conclude that the regular income of £40 per punter is the reason for such a short period. Holland (IIRC) issues them indefinitely.
Bear in mind that only 20 odd nations even issue ICCs. (Greece being one of the many that doesn't.)
[1] Or to be more precise it must have an expiry date:
http://live.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2011/sc3wp3/ECE-TRANS-SC3-147-re1e.pdf
Rules here:
http://live.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2011/sc3wp3/ECE-TRANS-SC3-147-re1e.pdf
Complete text of original pre-edit post in case anyone cares:
Nope, a renewal period of some kind is required by UNCLOS but it does not have to be 5 years, it could be 100 years. [1] We don't know why the 5 year period was chosen but a cynic might conclude that the regular income of £40 per punter is the reason for such a short period. Holland (IIRC) issues them indefinitely.
Bear in mind that only 20 odd nations even issue ICCs. (Greece being one of the many that doesn't.)
[1] Or to be more precise it must have an expiry date:
http://live.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2011/sc3wp3/ECE-TRANS-SC3-147-re1e.pdf
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toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Please Cite. I see no reason the RYA's chosen renewal period would need to be 'in line' with "professional seafarers certificates" and the legislation itself doesn't require the renewal period to be in line with anything at all. I'm sure you'll be happy to share your source for this so we can all bring ourselves up to speed.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Please address all enquiries on this issue to the RYA and the MCA as the bodies responsible for issuing the certificate. Then you can get whatever it is you want from a definitive source. You have asked this question so many times and failed to follow the good advice to get the answer yourself rather than rely on others to deal with your ignorance.Please Cite. I see no reason the RYA's chosen renewal period would need to be 'in line' with "professional seafarers certificates" and the legislation itself doesn't require the renewal period to be in line with anything at all. I'm sure you'll be happy to share your source for this so we can all bring ourselves up to speed.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
You make an assertion, you support it. That's how it works.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I am amazed that your first word in a thread named ICC did not occur until post #50. Surely you are not giving up your one(or perhaps two)-man campaign to declare the ICC unnecessary?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Right. Just try this one more time. There is nothing new here - you have been told all this before, but just to summarise and provide a point for you to do something for yourself.
If you were a long standing member of the RYA you would receive a regular magazine. This is used (among other things) to inform members about the services they offer to members. Some time ago - and no I can't remember the actual date they published an article answering all your interminable questions. It explained inter alia, what the ICC was about, who issued it, why it was renewable at 5 year intervals, how the fee was set and a comparison with other countries policies. I just absorbed the knowledge, but did not keep the article as I did not expect to have to justify what I know to some lazy person who is too idle to find out things for himself. Recently there were some changes (also explained in the magazine) that allowed the RYA to issue ICCs to other nationalities in certain circumstances, and I was simply suggesting that there may have been other changes at the same time. I have not checked because renewal does not bother me. As a member, I get notice, fill in a form and a new one by return post. I realise however that others may have a different view, which is why I suggest they ask the RYA (and MCA) if the policy is still the same.
You need to get clear that the ICC is not an RYA document. It is issued on behalf of HMG in accordance with the UN treaty. The policy on renewal is therefore government policy and the fees set are those that are agreed with government. If you find that the RYA is not acting in accordance with government policy, I am sure others would be interested in the reasons why. However, there is no reason to think that they are - after all part of their activity is implementing government policy in a number of areas so would imagine they are pretty good at doing what they have agreed to do.
So, we are back to solving your "problem". I am afraid the answer is in your own hands. I assume you know how to use a telephone as you seem to have little difficulty in using a computer. Pick up the telephone, call the RYA and ask your questions. Don't be worried about appearing ignorant - after all if you were not ignorant you would not be asking the questions. Of course all this angst you seem to have could have been avoided several years ago if you had followed my advice at the time and taken up the kind offer from the RYA to visit their offices where they promised to answer all your questions. I expect a similar offer would be forthcoming now if you asked. After all I am sure if they knew about it they would prefer to stop the constant stream of ill informed comment posted by some on this public forum.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
In which case it should be easy for you to demonstrate your stated reason for the 5 year limit is the correct one out of the three conflicting reasons stated.
Davy_S
Well-Known Member
Toad, I think you are obsessed with the mention of the ICC, Tranona and Vyv-cox give some great free advice to people. It is spoiled by your arguments every time, most folks get fed up and the thread is wrecked, I can only presume that this is your intention.
As I live in Greece, i would love to watch you argue your point with the port police, I do not think you would win, nor should you ill advise someone on holiday that they are not needed.
Please refrain from spoiling the threads.
As I live in Greece, i would love to watch you argue your point with the port police, I do not think you would win, nor should you ill advise someone on holiday that they are not needed.
Please refrain from spoiling the threads.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
If you want to see what happens first hand find anyone from any nation other than the ~25 odd nations that issue ICCs and watch them right now. You've got several hundred Nationalties to choose from but how about an American maybe, I've met plenty of yanks in Greece. Or how about a Greek person - they certainly won't have an ICC and there are loads of them in Greece.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
Dear Toad,
Their are rules and regulations in Greece about certificates of competence for those who skipper boats in Greece. They are required. But within Greece, for Greek nationals in Greek registered boats, these have to be Greek certificates.
For foreign nationals, Greece has the right to insist they have certificates of competence if they skipper boats - while not on "innocent passage". This rule is applied to those who charter Greek vessels routinely, and randomly applied to those to whom DEKPA are issued (who obviously aren't on "innocent passage").
Note, I do not refer here to ICC - which Greece has not ratified - although they accept it. They accept most forms of certificate. But it's preferable for you to carry an interpretation of key phrases of its content in Greek if you have an "incident". After "incidents" many countries will demand documentary proof of your competence, and if you can't supply it, you'll find yourself liable to pay for a local examination or test (quite expensive sometimes) before you're permitted to leave harbour.
That's the reality. And, I hope, that's the OP's answer.
Have a waffle about the ICC if you wish, but in other countries, their rules and practices rule, whatever your personal wishes.