ICC not recognised in Holland

[scej]

in the last month i have moved a couple of boats from and to Holland and have been stopped by the river police on both occasions, I must point out at that at no point where we breaking any laws it was purely a paperwork check.

First time it was in a Hunton from Edam back to Southampton (brilliant boat) pulled up in the canal past amsterdam papaer work check etc, can we see your licence so ICC handed over with yachtmaster and VHF certs. the VHF cert is valid sir but you ICC and Yachtmaster are not!! not a recognised license sir. they checked this out for us after we had left and called to say that yes we where ok to use ICC.

Earlier this week into Rotterdam on another boat stopped in the river by plod again papers checked etc, ICC, yachtmaster and VHF handed over again to be told ICC is not recognised as not for high speed???? Plod where very polite held us up for nearly 2 hrs while they checked stuff out and then sent us on our merry way saying ICC not valid... not interested in Yachtmaster!!

so having been told its not valid / recognised they don't actually know what is!!!! so now what?

I have mailed RYA and await the response, probably get it in 2010 as usual.

Also beware that they are checking fuel for red diesel and you can get fined lots of dough if you can't prove where you got it from....... so take the receipts as this satisfies them..... for the time being...........

 

[Hurricane]

AFAIK the ICC is a certificate that is recognised by the UK authorities to pilot a UK registered craft in any country's waters.

So if you take that literally, yes, they dont have to recognise it in Holland. But I cant think what they would respect if not. We even have the facilities in our ICCs for an inland waterways endorsement - CEVNIC.

It would be interesting to hear what the RYA have to say about this - if they, indeed, bother to reply to your question.

 

[Whitelighter]

Were you on coatsal or inland water ways? The fact that there were police around suggests inland in which case they are quite correct and the ICC is not enough. For inland waterways in europe you must carry a CEVNI certificate or the CEVNI endorsement on your ICC

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
Were you on coatsal or inland water ways? The fact that there were police around suggests inland in which case they are quite correct and the ICC is not enough. For inland waterways in europe you must carry a CEVNI certificate or the CEVNI endorsement on your ICC

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where the ICC falls apart. The application form gives opportunity to have the Inland Water part ticked Yes. But only if you submit a CEVNI pass. Take my situation - which is similar to many others - I have absolutely no need for CEVNI as it's not recognised in Baltic where I am - but I need Inland Waters ... My ICC is Coastal Waters only.

I have been in discussion with RYA and have just restarted the talk - to see if this can be remedied.

The ICC is issued in accordance with Resolution 40 of the Working Party on Inland Water Transport United Nations Economic Commission for Europe - replacing Resolution 19 which various other countries still adhere to (eg here in Baltic)

The border line of Coastal and Inland waters is sometimes referred to inner port limits before proceeding upriver, or can be upper tidal limit. Some difficult locations may apply the Visitors mooring location as the limit !

I would hazard a guess that Holland is not usually a difficult location - so something must be amiss somewhere.

Anyway as a reply direct to jrb1978 - CEVNI is NOT a be-all and end-all. In fact more countries don't need it than that who do ! (That's from the RYA guy ... his words ! In fact he even went on to say that they are still trying to find out who set it that CEVNI is required !)

 

[oceanfroggie]

The ICC does stand legally in Holland (coastal and inland assuming yoiu have the cevni endorsment), it's just that the knowledge of it has not yet passed down through all the channels of police and security services of the countries that signed up to it under international treaty.

An RYA yachtmaster is an irrelevant piece of paper and of no statutory value whatsoever to a leisure boater in a foreign country. It may have "intrinsic" value to a charter company, but only under their "commercial" terms and conditions. In law a leisure Yachtmaster carries zero statutory weight (ie it's a toy cert). Too many folk think a yachtmaster cert is like a vehicle license or a pilots license - it's not! They have a legal statutory basis and are recognised under international law.

PS: However, imho the journey to attaining a yachtmaster can be of great value and benefit from a training perspective, but I do not rate ones attained by novices using "fast track" methods, they nullify the experience required over a sensible period of time.

 

[Hurricane]

I must admit that this thread confuse me /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I only have a little brain and most of it is responsible for life support!!

So I did a bit of googling abd came across this from the gods at the RYA

http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/boatingabroad/icc/Pages/ICC.aspx

I think it answers the questions but really isnt and answer to the problem.
It all smells of committees and bad decisions.

 

[scej]

in reply to ocean froggie
quote:
The ICC does stand legally in Holland (coastal and inland assuming yoiu have the cevni endorsment), it's just that the knowledge of it has not yet passed down through all the channels of police and security services of the countries that signed up to it under international treaty.

It would appear that the ICC is not accepted hence the post. for the record my ICC does have a CEVNI endorsement.

Quote:
An RYA yachtmaster is an irrelevant piece of paper and of no statutory value whatsoever to a leisure boater in a foreign country. It may have "intrinsic" value to a charter company, but only under their "commercial" terms and conditions. In law a leisure Yachtmaster carries zero statutory weight (ie it's a toy cert). Too many folk think a yachtmaster cert is like a vehicle license or a pilots license - it's not! They have a legal statutory basis and are recognised under international law.

The Yachtmaster certificate of competance is issued by the RYA who are approved by the MCA to issue this, ' has been examined to standards approved by the Maritime and coastguard agency and the royal yachting assocition and found competant to hold this certificate'.

with the correct endorsments this certificate of competance is valid for commercial use, so hardly a toy certificate, and you will find this is still a very well respected certificate of competance all around the world. I have never said it is a licence you brought that up!!!!

as far as fast trak yachtmasters are concerned i am also of teh opinion that they should have more experience before their exam, however they generally pay a pile of money to people like UKSA something like 14k to spend some 26 weeks on courses so they do get the required mileage but probably not enough sea experience, that said some of them turn out ok some not. I have used some uksa students as crew one was ok but the other was crap unfortunatly they don't teach them how to ty boats to pontoons but hey you can't have everything!!!!!!!!

As you seem to infer fast trak yachtmaster i can tell you i have 28 yrs experience and have had yachtmaster for the last 12 yrs with instructor qualification for the last 7 so not a fast trak hero!!!!

Also if you see the post there is a reference to 'High Speed' qualifications which seemed to be more of the issue.

there will apparantly be a report from plod to their supiriors regards this and there may well be some corespondence regards this. I would reiterate that we where stopped for a paperwork check no other reason. we where also 10 miles inland from europort heading to Rotterdam city marina.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Hi, sure accept the point about commercial endorsments, but most leisure folk don't have this endorsement, yet some wave yachtmaster certs about as if they had the same legal status as a pilots license or even a road vehicle license, or the master of a commercial ship - which the unendorsed yachtmaster cert does NOT have.

I'm a big fan of training and safety for leisure boaters, and a fan of the RYA's day skipper, coastal skipper and yachtmaster training and competancy programmes, but I get fed up of folk trying to claim or insinuate that the are something more than they are. They have nothing like the legal standing nor exacting standards of statutory competancy certificants such as pilot licences.

To pilot a leisure boat around UK waters one does not need anything, not so for a light aircraft, nor a HGV! It's not that many years ago one didn't need a car license, nor even that far back when one didn't even need a pilot's license, but one day soon certain types of leisure vessel will be forced to have licensed operators, on a statutory basis - and a good thing too.

The ICC is recognised under international treaty. Sure it's very light weight compared to the skills an experienced YM may actually have, but the ICC has teeth, however small. The while idea was to have a basic boating competancy certification that could be recognised world wide.

A significant problem with the ICC seems so few "authorities" are aware of it's status, it's still a newish concept. Most policemen wouldn't have a clue what it was if they saw one.

 

[Csail]

Make your own certificate, the Greek plod were happy with ours. Just put loads of big words and European on it.

 

[Refueler]

Latvians finally have right design !

Instead of a flimsy piece of paper - they produce a Credit Card style Licence. Same design / style as the Photo ID Driving Licence. Even the previous was better than most others - it was about 10cm x 5cm double sided and sealed in laminate. Hard to fake !

 

[Hurricane]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, sure accept the point about commercial endorsments, but most leisure folk don't have this endorsement, yet some wave yachtmaster certs about as if they had the same legal status as a pilots license or even a road vehicle license, or the master of a commercial ship - which the unendorsed yachtmaster cert does NOT have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny - I thought that getting the YM itself was the difficult bit - AFAIK to get the commercial endorsement it is just an extra safety/liferaft qualification and another medical. The YM itself was much more demanding.

 

[pheran]

What form does the CEVNI endorsement take? I remember taking the test about a million years ago and on my ICC it just says 'Yes' against Inland Waters. Is that it or should I be carrying an additional bit of paper?

Not that I've found that the ICC counts for much abroad. Nor my YM come to that but as said above, perhaps thats fair enough given some of the ways these can be obtained these days. Very much a debased 'currency'. What I have found impresses is my RYA Inland Waters Helmsman Certificate. Must be that it uses all the right words, spelt out in great big red letters on the top of the cert.

 

[Refueler]

Some ICC I see have a red stamp on them for CEVNI.

It's a ridiculous error the CEVNI / Inland Waters bit on the ICC. Some might think some 'spark' may have tried to use it to get CEVNI more widely accepted !! Consider that even many countries that require CEVNI endorsement don't follow all CEVNI rules on their rivers / canals etc. !

 

[tinkicker0]

Just taken a look at my ICC.

It just says:

valid for:

Coastal Waters YES

Inland Waters YES

For pleasure craft not exceeding 24M and 80 Gross Tonnes.

Oh and not valid for powerboats over 10 metres apparently. Maybe this was the sticking point?

Had to take 2 training courses, one on inland waters and one in the sea at Whitby, plus bone up on and take a test for the CEVNI regulations at my local sailing club.

All topped off with a photo that makes me look like Roy Orbison and a RYA rubber stamp.

Thought it was valid throughout the world.

 

[Refueler]

Very strange .... just had mine issued couple of months ago and says :

Valid For :

Coastal Waters Yes
Inland Waters No

For use on following Pleasure Craft :

Power up to 10m Yes
Power 10m and over Yes
Sail No
Personal Watercraft Yes


****************

I actually think they have got some errors in deciding who can and who can't as well. For example, I qualify for all power levels as I hold Merchant Navy Deck Officer Certificates - that I think is wrong as when did I take out a large high-power MOBO for my Ticket ? My Sail part is No, despite my training as Cox / Command of sailing lifeboats as well as powered.

The Inland bit - already covered that error.

As to validity ? It must be valid for All Europe surely as it's issued based on UN Commission for Europe ? As it's a UN Commission - would that make it work outside Europe ?

 

[tinkicker0]

I gather from mine that I can skipper a powerboat up to 10 metres and weighing up to 80 gross tonnes. Would a minisub come in under 10 metres?

I cannot skipper a yacht under sail, or presumably one over 10 metres under power, which must mean I can skipper one of less than 10 metres under power.

But I can skipper a rowing boat up to 24 metres long and weighing 80 tonnes.

Where did I put my viking helmet?

Or do you think piloting a Roman war galley up the Seine would be acceptable? I vote that it be I that pounds the cadence on the drums.

My head hurts.

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[chrisc]

and you still need a cevni to navigate inland in europe.

 

[Refueler]

[ QUOTE ]
and you still need a cevni to navigate inland in europe.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where the errors come in .... RYA issue of ICC says you need CEVNI for Inland Waters, but in fact not all Europe requires CEVNI.

BUT you need Inland Waters to say YES on your ICC whether that country requires CEVNI or not.

Europe is not just French / Dutch canals - there are quite a few water systems other than those in Europe. Many do not need any specialised endorsement as CEVNI.

 

[blueglass]

now in my 4th year cruising europe inland and sea, inc Italy France and Greece and no one has ever asked for ICC OR CEVNI. Have been stopped by police and coastguards in inland and coastal locations 6 or 7 times and they are only ever interested in SSR registration, passports and occasionally insurance documents. Not suggesting it isnt technically a requirement as I know it is, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

 

[Chris_d]

If you take the ICC course in a Powerboat you can do an up to 10m course or over 10m course. The ICC issued if you already have a DS or YM etc.. does not cover an over 10m powerboat, perhaps this is what the Dutch police were refering to.