ICC for caostal waters?

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000648362&dateTexte=


That is a link to chapter, line and verse of "qualifications" needed for the French to go boating in France for fun.

In it, it quite clearly states in Article 2, Para a.

" En eaux maritime, la conduite des bateaux de plaisance a voile, meme equipes d'un moteur auxilliaire, n'est pas subordonnee a la possession d'un permis"
So, basically, if the French don't need it then neither does anyone else, even the English.

If you have a read of the rest of Article 2, driving of motorboats with an engine power exceeding 4.5 kw require a "permis" in "eaux maritime".

In interior waters (rivers and canals) "driving" any boat with an engine power exceeding 4.5 kw requires a license.

So you may need it if you have a motorboat in coastal waters, and you do need it if you take said motorboat inland. A sailing boat inland has no useable mast and sails and is thus a motorboat.

OK?

So stop squabbling.
 
Tranona said:
I have every sympathy with your position and just as you do, I have my ICC and all the other bits of paper.

However, I think you do need to be clear about the "legal" requirements or more importantly the ambiguities and inconsistencies in application. Apart from getting my charter permits I have never been asked for my ICC in Greece, whether on a Greek or UK flagged boat. The RYA advises, as you have quoted, that some countries are more likely to ask to see it even when it is not required, but the incidence is low.
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bbbutt I am leaving for Greece at the end of this week and have "radioed" ahead and asked what they want in the way of documentation and guess what they want to see my ICC as I understand its a condition of getting a cruising permit "DEKPA"? - that along with lots of other stuff all translated into Greek.

This comes from the Greek customs and immigration as far as I know - so what next? The whole thing is a pontless can of worms but what can "we" do about it that wont involve the inside of a jail cell?
 
Marsupial said:
bbbutt I am leaving for Greece at the end of this week and have "radioed" ahead and asked what they want in the way of documentation and guess what they want to see my ICC as I understand its a condition of getting a cruising permit "DEKPA"? - that along with lots of other stuff all translated into Greek.

This comes from the Greek customs and immigration as far as I know - so what next?
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If you've got what they ask for just take it.

If you haven't got it, I'd think you've left it a bit late since you're leaving in 2 days time.
 
" En eaux maritime, la conduite des bateaux de plaisance a voile, meme equipes d'un moteur auxilliaire, n'est pas subordonnee a la possession d'un permis"

Unless it's done professionnally... See my earlier post too as to what defines a sailing boat.
 
Sybarite said:
" En eaux maritime, la conduite des bateaux de plaisance a voile, meme equipes d'un moteur auxilliaire, n'est pas subordonnee a la possession d'un permis"

Unless it's done professionally... See my earlier post too as to what defines a sailing boat.
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Yup, agreed, and now the folk who still want to argue can refer to the text in my link... :)

For the next bit of argument stopping. I cannot be a*sed to find the relevent part of the French legal code, but:
[rant]
If you take your car abroad you require, amongst other things:
1. Your driving license. Original, not a copy OR a letter from DVLA as to why you can't produce the original.
2. Insurance certificate. Original, not a copy.
3. MOT certificate, if applicable. Original, not a copy.
4. V5C - Original, not a copy (plus a letter from the vehicle keeper if it's not you) authorising you to have the use of the car.

If you can't provide the original documents when asked then you are deemed not to have them "in your possession" and you get fined. On the spot. Oh, and if it a no-license scenario then you can't drive. This means that you can have an on-the-spot disqualification if they find you've been on the drink.

Oh, If you don't have an ID card (or a passport) "in your possession" you can end up "dans la brigade" until they find time to go and see if anyone else can come and produce it for you. Might not be for a couple of days though.

Visiting boats are not too different

Boat's papers, certificate of insurance(- strictly speaking not necessary, but try staying in a marina if they ask and you cannot produce it) VHF licence (and operator's certificate) required. All originals - no photocopies.

This is merely to prove that you're not a French boat.
French boats need MUCH more (all originals - including a mandatory Certificate of Insurance), but the requirements for foreign boats are basically to prove to the French officials that you are not a French boat and that they don't have to check that you have all the legal "requirements" (which include safety gear) necessary for a French boat.

I've had this discussion with "officialdom" several times in France, both with a French reg sailing boat and a British reg sailing boat, and No, I don't have an ICC yet because I haven't needed one. :) [/rant]
 
Marsupial said:
bbbutt I am leaving for Greece at the end of this week and have "radioed" ahead and asked what they want in the way of documentation and guess what they want to see my ICC as I understand its a condition of getting a cruising permit "DEKPA"? - that along with lots of other stuff all translated into Greek.

This comes from the Greek customs and immigration as far as I know - so what next? The whole thing is a pontless can of worms but what can "we" do about it that wont involve the inside of a jail cell?
Click to expand...

This is a perfect (?) example of the ambiguities of the requirements in this area. You need a DEKPA if your boat is over 10 metres. To get it you need the registration document and a declaration of dimensions including tonnage as the payment is related to that. You need to declare who the owner is (from the registration document) but you can also add additional skippers if they are with you at the time -eg husband and wife or if you want to lend the boat to a friend. There is no formal requirement for an ICC, but presenting one avoids them asking for it! When I got mine in Mourtos they dismissed it as irrelevant!

The whole process is applied with varying degrees of rigour - as Vyvcox says above. Mourtos, Preveza and Fiskardo and sometimes Gaios have bored Port Police who sometimes enjoy putting you through the hoops, but other timers are too bored to move from their office!

As I have recounted elsewhere, when demonstration of competence is required such as getting a charter permit, I have got it with a simple piece of paper from the charter operator, been asked for an ICC and on one occasion required to present myself personally to the Port Police office in Corfu town rather than the usual leaving the papers in the marina office and picking them up an hour later.

So, go with the flow and have a wonderful time in Greece!
 
duncanmack said:
So you may need it if you have a motorboat in coastal waters, and you do need it if you take said motorboat inland. A sailing boat inland has no useable mast and sails and is thus a motorboat.
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Your french is obviously better than mine, so can you clarify what it means when it says
Au sens du présent décret, on entend :
b) Par "bateau de plaisance à moteur", tout bateau exclusivement motorisé et tout bateau à propulsion vélique dont le rapport entre la surface de voilure exprimée en mètres carrés et la masse exprimée en kilogrammes est inférieur à un coefficient fixé par un arrêté des ministres chargés de la mer et des transports ;
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Sounds to me like quite a few "sailing" boats could find that they are actually "motorboats" within the meaning of the "loi".
 
Tim


"Au sens du présent décret, on entend :
b) tout bateau à propulsion vélique dont le rapport entre la surface de voilure exprimée en mètres carrés et la masse exprimée en kilogrammes est inférieur à un coefficient fixé par un arrêté des ministres chargés de la mer et des transports ;

Sounds to me like quite a few "sailing" boats could find that they are actually "motorboats" within the meaning of the "loi". "

- All sailing boats where the relationship between the sail area, in square metres, and the weight of the boat expressed in kilograms is smaller than a coefficient fixed by Statute ( of the Ministry of Sea and Transport).

- Which is to clear up any confusion caused by how to categorise a motorsailer.

Sybarite quoted:-

Mixed sail/motor To determine which is predominant :

Using the formulae :

(a) R = S / square root of L X D

S = Sail area in m²
L = LOA
D = displacement in tonnes

If the result is less than 5.5 then it is a motor boat.

or, (b) Q = 1.36 P / D

P = power in kw
D = (as above)

If the result is greater than 9 then it is a motor boat.

I have been told, by a retired French Master mariner who is a very keen sailor (and a bit of a bloody pedant but a very dear friend) of a different criterion. The ratio of the power of the sails - worked out from the area of the sails to the CV of the engine.
However this probably was the case 40 odd years ago (+), because the Cheval Vapeur rating was calculated in a similar way to our old "fiscal" horsepower - think Austin 7 etc. and they don't do that no more. He recalls that it then became the relationship between the "sail" power and the output (in Kw) of the motor. Which ties in with Sybarite's formulae. :)
 
timbartlett said:
Sounds to me like quite a few "sailing" boats could find that they are actually "motorboats" within the meaning of the "loi".
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This was addressed in post 81 of this thread by Sybarite.

(I know it's a long thread, but if you post without reading you risk saying things that have already been said, sometimes better.)

P.S. Bu**er, beaten to it by Duncanmack. Must try and type faster.
 
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alan_d said:
This was addressed in post 81 of this thread by Sybarite.
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I'm sorry, but it was not.

The loi as Duncanmack was kind enough to confirm, refers to a ratio between the sail area and the weight.
Sybarite's formulae give two different ratios, neither of which are a ratio between sail area and weight. In other words, neither of Sybarite's formulae can possibly be the one referred to in the loi -- or if they are, the Ministry has overstepped the limits of its authority by devising a ratio that does not meet the criteria laid down in law.

FWIW, even using Sybarite's formula, a 10m "sailing" boat with a 30hp engine could well be defined as a motor boat according to the french rules.
 
timbartlett said:
I'm sorry, but it was not.

The loi as Duncanmack was kind enough to confirm, refers to a ratio between the sail area and the weight.
Sybarite's formulae give two different ratios, neither of which are a ratio between sail area and weight. In other words, neither of Sybarite's formulae can possibly be the one referred to in the loi -- or if they are, the Ministry has overstepped the limits of its authority by devising a ratio that does not meet the criteria laid down in law.

FWIW, even using Sybarite's formula, a 10m "sailing" boat with a 30hp engine could well be defined as a motor boat according to the french rules.
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Tim,

Using the formulae :

(a) R = S / square root of L X D

S = Sail area in m²
L = LOA
D = displacement in tonnes

If the result is less than 5.5 then it is a motor boat.


or, (b) Q = 1.36 P / D

P = power in kw
D = (as above)

If the result is greater than 9 then it is a motor boat


I might be missing something here, but sail area divided by the square root of the LOA (presumably in metres) times the displacement in tonnes IS a ratio of sail area to weight

Given your example of a 10m boat with a 30hp engine (which is not relevent in formula a)
Lets assume it weighs 6 tonnes

a) 5.5=s /sq rt of 60

5.5= s/7.745
s= 5.5x7.745=42.597
So if sail area is more than 42.597sq metres it's not a motor boat (say 450 sq ft)

b) Q = 1.36 P / D

Q=1.36x6/(30hp x.75)
=8.16/22.5kw
=2.25

is less than 9 - is not a motor boat.

You're right, a lot of sailing boats could well be regarded as motorboats using the formula a)

Oi! Sybarite, you sure your formulae are correct? Might it be formula a) and b) ?
 
Tim,

Sorted.

"Mais au fait, qu'est-ce qu'un bateau à moteur?

Un bateau sera désigné comme bateau à moteur lorsqu’il répondra à 2 règles mathématiques bien précises : le rapport entre la surface totale de la voilure (en m2) et la racine du produit du déplacement à vide (en tonne) par la longueur de la coque (en m) doit être égal ou inférieur à 5.5, et le produit de la puissance du moteur (en kilowatts) multipliée par 1.36 multiplié par l’inverse du déplacement à vide du bateau (en tonne) permi bateaudoit être supérieur à 9. Cette formule fait bien sûr rire, mais sachez que c’est comme ça que nos législateurs définissent un bateau à moteur!"

Sybarite said it was an either/or ratio.

The above explains that a motorsailer has to satisfy BOTH formulae to be defined as a motor boat!

La precision des legislateurs Francais! :)
The power of google! :)
 
MonniotC said:
Well, that slanging match has cleared things up then
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Only for the coastal waters of France.
Now we need to do the same for Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc.etc.etc. Then we can start on the inland waters.
I'm afraid my Norwegian is a bit rusty ... anyone here speak Latvian?
MonniotC said:
It's easy to get an ICC, so why not just get one? Just in case.
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Exactly so.
But if you haven't, and you get nicked for not having one, you could always refer to this discussion and demand the French equivalent of a judicial review to decide whether the Minister was entitled to devise a formula which include factors not mentioned in the primary legislation.
 
I have been sailing in French waters for over 20 years with a boat registered in France but wearing a red ensign which was the rule when I bought the boat but which I believe may have changed since.

I have never been asked for proof of ownership; insurance certificate, VHF license (I don't have one but that's another story) and I don't have to comply with the safety requirements because of the flag. My home marina did ask for an insurance certificate 4 or 5 years ago. The customs have occasionally asked to see my registration certificate (Passeport) which as a foreigner I have instead of an Acte de Francisation. One or two said that I should have also a British registration. I replied "No way" because an SSR only applies to British residents and a Sch 1, or whatever, means physically bringing the boat to the UK. Which I would refuse to be obliged to do. After lots of hmming and hawing the matter has never been followed up. I once had not paid my annual tax and was asked by the Douane to produce the receipt within a few weeks (with a 10% add on).

As far as the VHF cert is concerned the French said I had to do it in the UK because of the flag and the UK said I had to do it in France because of the boat location. I sent copies of the appropiate correspondance to both centres and asked for a ruling. I'm still waiting for the reply - after 20 years.

Lots of problems can be avoided with Belgian registration which a lot of French boat owners have done.
 
It's either / or. If either of the conditions exists, it's deemed to be a motor boat.

In practice I believe nobody gives a toss. As long as you have a mast and some sail up I suspect nobody will ever check unless it is pertinent to an accident or something like that.

Contrary to what is suggested on this forum, I believe the Brits to be much greater sticklers for regulations than the French.
 
Sybarite said:
It's either / or. If either of the conditions exists, it's deemed to be a motor boat.

In practice I believe nobody gives a toss. As long as you have a mast and some sail up I suspect nobody will ever check unless it is pertinent to an accident or something like that.

Contrary to what is suggested on this forum, I believe the Brits to be much greater sticklers for regulations than the French.
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Sybarite, I'm not doubting what you say. Can you point me at the actual regulation please? I'm really intrigued now.

I've heard the French say "les regles sont pour les autres"!
 
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