ICC for caostal waters?

[toad_oftoadhall]

For those that have followed previous threads on having originals of the ships papers on board I have just received a PM from an embarrassed person who informs me that the fine was 150Euro for only having a photocopy and they were inspected by the gendarmes in St Vaast.

I'm going to take a wild guess here: They haven't given you any detail of the offence that allows it to be identified?

Correct?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The main point of all these discussions/advice is a) to clarify for less experienced people and b) ensure the sensible advice outnumbers the trolls misleading advice.

Both aims would be achieved most effectively by simply posting enough detail to identify the fixed penalty legislation in question, or even better identifying the legislation yourself.

 

[haydude]

I was told yesterday by 2 RYA training schools than you had to have an ICC even in coastal water outside of the UK.
I know you have to have one for inland waterways in France but is this new for coastal waters?

I confirm, ICC required to sail to France, Belgium, Germany, Spain, practically everywhere in the EU but the UK

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I confirm, ICC required to sail to France, Belgium, Germany, Spain, practically everywhere in the EU but the UK

Cite!

 

[Tranona]

I confirm, ICC required to sail to France, Belgium, Germany, Spain, practically everywhere in the EU but the UK

Haydude

In order not to provide Toad with further ammunition what you say is simply not true.

Suggest you read the RYA guidance on the subject which is quite clear even allowing for the inevitable ambiguities.

Note also, as you will discover ICC is nothing to do with the EU, but a UN sponsored document.

 

[Doghousekeeper]

Cite!

B*gger me. I agree with Toad!!

Sorry haydude. Perhaps you're caught up with some of the confusion around this issue:

- some people offering ICC assessments are giving poor advice, and we tend to believe them because we think they are the experts, but even the experts get it wrong sometimes

- there is some confusion as well about ICC being a national requirement in the law of a particular state, when in that instance it is simply a commercial requirement introduced by for example someone chartering a boat and wanting confirmation that you might not break it

- some countries expect qualifications and check them, others expect qualifications and don't check them. Some are happy with other certificates, some want ICC

- sometimes (and I have experienced this) over zealous officials will ask for certificates even when they are not required.

So, incredibly, I'll side with Toad on this point. You really need to quote real examples for some of those countries you've listed. And recognise that the requirement to show some sort of qualification may be a local port requirement rather than a national one for that country, or it may be that a commercial operator wants you to prove how competent you are, or it may just be a mistake.

Oh and by the way ... I'm still waiting for an apology from Toad for suggesting that I might not be telling the truth. I don't think I'll hold my breath though

 

[Marsupial]

Haydude

In order not to provide Toad with further ammunition what you say is simply not true.

Suggest you read the RYA guidance on the subject which is quite clear even allowing for the inevitable ambiguities.

Note also, as you will discover ICC is nothing to do with the EU, but a UN sponsored document.

Ok Tranona, I ve lifted this from the RYA website, "Spain, Greece and Portugal for example, have not adopted Resolution 40 but are still most likely to ask visitors for an ICC."

so which bit of that means its ok to turn up without one?

Its all very well for you lot to debate the the details of "rules" and if they apply, but when you get out of your armchair and actually sail somewhere and find that you are confronted with an official who wants to see these documents, waving this thread at him, entering into a legal argument about the signitories of resolution 40 wont do you any favours.

I've had a basin full of officials over my life but I do know that the only to beat them is to play them at their own game, we now have three volumes of documentation on board that I insist they read and record when they come onboard, it takes them a few hours on deck, sometimes in the sun sometimes in the rain. the nuggets they are looking for are in amongst them but they get no help me in finding them, I dont talk their lingo so I dont understand what they want - easy. BUT THEY DONT COME BACK.

 

[Tranona]

Ok Tranona, I ve lifted this from the RYA website, "Spain, Greece and Portugal for example, have not adopted Resolution 40 but are still most likely to ask visitors for an ICC."

so which bit of that means its ok to turn up without one?

Its all very well for you lot to debate the the details of "rules" and if they apply, but when you get out of your armchair and actually sail somewhere and find that you are confronted with an official who wants to see these documents, waving this thread at him, entering into a legal argument about the signitories of resolution 40 wont do you any favours.

I've had a basin full of officials over my life but I do know that the only to beat them is to play them at their own game, we now have three volumes of documentation on board that I insist they read and record when they come onboard, it takes them a few hours on deck, sometimes in the sun sometimes in the rain. the nuggets they are looking for are in amongst them but they get no help me in finding them, I dont talk their lingo so I dont understand what they want - easy. BUT THEY DONT COME BACK.

I have every sympathy with your position and just as you do, I have my ICC and all the other bits of paper.

However, I think you do need to be clear about the "legal" requirements or more importantly the ambiguities and inconsistencies in application. Apart from getting my charter permits I have never been asked for my ICC in Greece, whether on a Greek or UK flagged boat. The RYA advises, as you have quoted, that some countries are more likely to ask to see it even when it is not required, but the incidence is low.

You can of course take the Toad view of wanting to see the specific law that requires him to do something, but I think he is probably unique in this and will no doubt suffer the consequences at some point in the future. Or you can take the pragmatic view of informing yourself of the official position, taking note of expert advice and other peoples' experiences and making your own judgement about your course of action

 

[bendyone]

I have just sent the following email to the new CEO of the RYA

Dear Sarah

Thank you for your letter introducing yourself.

I have a question regarding the need for an ICC. I keep my British registered sailing boat in Calais and so far have not been requested for documentation other than my SSR and insurance certificate.
However I intend to go into the French inland waterways for which it is claer that I require an ICC and Cevni endorsment. I spoke to 2 RYA registered sailing schools that both said (100% certain) that I also needed an ICC in French coastal waters.
I started a discussion on the YBW forum to see if others had found this to be true. YBW Forum , It makes interesting reading . Your website is not 100% clear on t he requirement, if it is true that an ICC is required by law I would guess there are many small boat owners that do not comply.
Could you state the position with a yes or no answer whether an ICC qualification is require by French law to use my boat in French coastal water?

Many thanks for your help and I wish you the best in your new role.

kind regards

Lets hope I to get a clear reply.

 

[snowleopard]

A question about the ICC

I can get an ICC any time by producing my YM certificate which is valid for life. If you get the ICC by taking a test, what happens when you want another one 5 years later - do you rely on the RYA keeping a record, do you have to produce the old one or do you have to take another test?

 

[Robin]

I can get an ICC any time by producing my YM certificate which is valid for life. If you get the ICC by taking a test, what happens when you want another one 5 years later - do you rely on the RYA keeping a record, do you have to produce the old one or do you have to take another test?

You re-apply and return the old one with the application and a new photo. I don't think there is a reminder letter either.

 

[vyv_cox]

I have never been asked for my ICC in Greece, whether on a Greek or UK flagged boat.

Just for info, I have been asked to produce mine in Mourthos and Preveza, both places that have something of a reputation for high-handedness in some officials. As I was able to produce mine there was no problem.

I believe a post here some time ago described the experience of a forumite's son at Mourthos. His boat was less than 10 metres in length, so did not require a transit log. He was told by an official to go to the harbour office to pay, where of course he could not produce his transit log. The official confiscated his and his crew's passports, declaring that he would send them to Athens(?) for 'checking'. This would take four days. In the end the skipper paid a substantial fine in order to be able to continue his trip. Serves as an example of someone being perfectly within the law but suffering from officialdom.

 

[Channel Ribs]

"Resolution 40 not only included operators of pleasure craft bound for or on the inland and coastal waters of foreign states but specifically included bareboat charter vessels. Significantly, it also set out the nautical, regulatory and technical competency requirements to be achieved and a minimum age (16 years of age) for the issue of an ICC irrespective of individual national schemes."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Competence

As an Arwhyaye instructor I have found it difficult to get people to see the point of the ICC, it usually ends up being a conversation about having a form of ID which also shows boat handling ability and as such a good thing to show officials.

The point is and as is proved by this thread, the RYA would do well to clarify.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

You can of course take the Toad view of wanting to see the specific law that requires him to do something, but I think he is probably unique in this and will no doubt suffer the consequences at some point in the future.

The consequences of seeing the specific law are entirely positive.

 

[Channel Ribs]

The consequences of seeing the specific law are entirely positive.

Knowing what the law is or is not while being Frog marched is no use.

The ICC is, I believe and hope, intended as a widely accepted way of demonstrating that your boat driving has been tested and found good. Sadly it is only a small step for this to be needed by over zealous traffic warden types.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Knowing what the law is or is not while being Frog marched is no use.

So what?

Do you ever read the Highway code? Building regs if you're having windows fitted? What's the problem with reading about French fixed penalties?

Can you honestly say you've never read a spec of the Electronics you sell?

Ignorance is not bliss.

 

[Sybarite]

Not for France. See my post above and Brendan's additional comment.

 

[Sybarite]

A few years ago I spoke to the French Douane on their stand at the Salon Nautique. When I said that Brits didn't need bits of paper for their boats and that there is supposed to be freedom of movement of goods and persons in the EU he replied that I was perfectly correct but that many of their own officers did not understand that.

I didn't get it in writing so use this knowledge at your own risks and perils...!!

 

[Channel Ribs]

So what?

I was not criticizing you, just lamenting the general view that the person demanding the papers usually dislikes being asked where he derives his powers.

I am with you all way in knowing what is what.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I am with you all way in knowing what is what.

Agree, always good to know what the score is from a reliable source.