ICC for caostal waters?

bendyone

bendyone

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I was told yesterday by 2 RYA training schools than you had to have an ICC even in coastal water outside of the UK.
I know you have to have one for inland waterways in France but is this new for coastal waters?
 
bendyone said:
I was told yesterday by 2 RYA training schools than you had to have an ICC even in coastal water outside of the UK.
I know you have to have one for inland waterways in France but is this new for coastal waters?
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It seems highly unlikly to me that every country in the world, at about the same time, passed legislation requiring visiting British Flagged Vessels to have a crewmember with an ICC in coastal waters. All of this without any mention in the sailing press. However, it's impossible to prove the negative.

My gut feeling they're trying to scam some cash by selling more ICCs but I think you'd have to ask them for more detail about their claim before being totally sure.

PS: Name the schools.
 
ICC Abroad

My understanding is that some countries, including France and Spain, require you to have evidence of a qualification that matches the requirements of their own regulations, and that the ICC fulfills that.
 
ICC very confusing

Just read UN resolution 40, YES it covers “inland/coastal waterways”.

Not all countries have signed up - couldn’t find a list only 9 in Europe but one is France.

PROBLEM: even countries that have not signed up have adopted it.

Over many years I have been asked to produce my ICC in France, Belgium and Holland and Belgium is not a signatory.

My permit to cruise Greece is only issued if I can produce an ICC – or that’s what I have been told on the phone, will let you know when I get there next month.

Conclusion: If you leave the UK you are better off with one than without one.
 
PlanB said:
My understanding is that some countries, including France and Spain, require you to have evidence of a qualification that matches the requirements of their own regulations, and that the ICC fulfills that.
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Having been boarded (Not inland) by the French authority's in the past no enquiries were made regarding my qualifications.
 
Just read on the Jersey sail school site

If you sail or powerboat from Jersey and enter French and most European waters you must hold an International Certificate of Competence (ICC). The RYA is the UK issuing authority for the International Certificate of Competence (ICC).

If you are interested in taking your ICC (if you boat in French waters you must have) then please contact us by clicking here >>>
 
bendyone said:
Just read on the Jersey sail school site

If you sail or powerboat from Jersey and enter French and most European waters you must hold an International Certificate of Competence (ICC). The RYA is the UK issuing authority for the International Certificate of Competence (ICC).

If you are interested in taking your ICC (if you boat in French waters you must have) then please contact us by clicking here >>>
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they are Selling ICCs arent they
 
Many countries in Europe will ask to see your 'driving licence'. In many cases their own citizens have to have one and some officials assume that other countries must be the same. I have at various times been asked to show my ICC in Holland, Belgium, France, Spain, Italy and Greece. I have no idea what the reaction would have been if I had not had one but it saved a load of hassle when I was able to produce it.

These were all in coastal ports. The only time I have been strictly inland, Canal du Midi, I was never asked to show it.
 
sailorman said:
they are Selling ICCs arent they
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Agree.

It drives me up the wall when people say "I was asked for.". It means nothing.

I was asked for a look at my Camera by a Spanish Policeman. Should we conclude from that that Camera's are compulsory in Spain?

As far as I know there is no law that requires sailors of your average 10m yacht to have an ICC in French coastal waters. If there is, then someone needs to produce it and the penalty for failing to have it so we all know.

The problem is that the oranization who should be publishing clear and detailed guidence on the topic of foreign law as it applies to yachtsmen is the RYA, yet they have a vested interest in keeping it as unclear as possible so they sell more qualifications.
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Agree.

It drives me up the wall when people say "I was asked for.". It means nothing.

I was asked for a look at my Camera by a Spanish Policeman. Should we conclude from that that Camera's are compulsory in Spain?

As far as I know there is no law that requires sailors of your average 10m yacht to have an ICC in French coastal waters. If there is, then someone needs to produce it and the penalty for failing to have it so we all know.

The problem is that the oranization who should be publishing clear and detailed guidence on the topic of foreign law as it applies to yachtsmen is the RYA, yet they have a vested interest in keeping it as unclear as possible so they sell more qualifications.
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Dear Toad,

You MUST get your facts right.

it only took a couple of minutes to find that the MCA are quite busy

Date of Offence: 7th June 2004

Offence: Five charges arising from two voyages; two for not having the appropriate Certificate of Competence to take charge of the yacht; two for not having Load Line Certification for the yacht, and one for breaching a Prohibition Notice.


Total fine and costs £15,500

what was interesting in that case was that the Yacht was in the South of france but was registered in the UK, the UK authorities prosecuted.

so now you know!
 
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Marsupial said:
Dear Toad,

You MUST get your facts right.

it only took a couple of minutes to find that the MCA are quite busy

Date of Offence: 7th June 2004

Offence: Five charges arising from two voyages; two for not having the appropriate Certificate of Competence to take charge of the yacht; two for not having Load Line Certification for the yacht, and one for breaching a Prohibition Notice.


Total fine and costs £15,500

what was interesting in that case was that the Yacht was in the South of france but was registered in the UK, the UK authorities prosecuted.

so now you know!
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was this "Skippered Charter"
 
Yes it was skippered charter. But the ICC regs were, I think, just another book to throw at him. I have some sympathy with Toad on this one, trying to find out exactly what is Maritime law is very time consuming and quite difficult - as one who now has a lot of time. The ICC rules as far as I (thought) I new them mean that you are not allowed to exit from some countries (Australia, New Zealand for example) unless you have one, you are not allowed into inland waterways but then there are the CEVNI rules.

I remember many years ago the New Zealanders were impounding yachts on the grounds that the skipper was incompetent even though he had sailed half way round the world – but they used UN res 40 to justify their actions – and it stuck.

As to “I was asked to produce it, so what if I did not”, I can’t say I‘ve always had one.

Its not often that the MCA get out the big guns and have ago at yacht skippers but there have been some notable cases over the years, like the racing yacht fined for going the wrong way up the TSS off kent.

for your information here's the link to a few cases, mostly commercial ships - but the same rules apply to us.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07...ecutions/mcga-dops-enforce-prosecutions04.htm
 
My understanding is that an ICC is needed in Croatia, Greece and Turkey. Croatia also requires a VHF licence which doubtless will creep to other countries. In the Caribbean there are no requirements, I wonder if it mght affect the charter market.
 
flag state rule?

What in all this has happened to the item of maritime law stating that the rules of the flag state not the port state apply to coastal if not inland waters? i.e. if the UK doesnt need an ICC then privately owned UK registered boats below a certain size, which rules out big ( super) yachts and comercial yachts, dont need an ICC to visit France, by the same token we dont need to comply with their rules on safety equipment: I would add that I do have and carry abroad an ICC and my yacht is equipped beyond the French safety requirements as most UK yachts would be
 
chubby said:
What in all this has happened to the item of maritime law stating that the rules of the flag state not the port state apply to coastal if not inland waters? i.e. if the UK doesnt need an ICC then privately owned UK registered boats below a certain size, which rules out big ( super) yachts and comercial yachts, dont need an ICC to visit France, by the same token we dont need to comply with their rules on safety equipment: I would add that I do have and carry abroad an ICC and my yacht is equipped beyond the French safety requirements as most UK yachts would be
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I guess you'll find that was why Resolution 40 was passed and has been adopted by so many countries for coastal waters - it does provide a measure of international agreement and a benchmark of the competence required. Once you're outside territorial limits you're back to flag state anyway. Although some people may think that the benchmark set isn't high enough - Powerboat Level 2 or Day Skipper - but that's just what it is.

As others have said, the level of take up is mixed (typically European!) and is a mix of local byelaws, national law (whether policed or not), and commercial imperative. More and more countries and charterers do ask for "your papers" and where they do, it is the ICC they recognise and not your RYA certificate. ICC certificates carry translations into most European languages and will cover you up to 24m if your underlying certiofcate of competence is appropriate. Well worth carrying with the ship's papers on small boats, and I've found as a general rule it's best to have it. If you're an RYA member there is no charge for it - you only have to prove your competence. I don't hink it's fair to blame the RYA for this - their advice on their website may not be easy to find but it is clear enough.


As a matter of interest, the RYA is not the only UK issuing authority ( for example, BSAC is also an issuing authority).

As for the MCA carrying out investigations in the South of France - they are perfectly entitled and right to do so. Most of the big boats down there are red flagged and part of the reason for that choice is because of the standards of MCA regulation (a choice that may well be driven by unions and insurers, but nonetheless seen as a mark of quality)
 
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