I think this is disgusting from a fellow boater

[oldgit]

What trade's tax breaks were 'tweaked' and failed?

What trades are you quite willing to do without, that struggle to 'stand on their own efforts'? Farming? Fishing? Construction?

More along the lines of Ship building,Car manufacture,Film production,Steel,Forestery et al.

 

[david_bagshaw]

those advocating an increase in tax want to remember what happened to the marine business when there was 25% vat on lesiure items in the 80s.

Wiped out british boat builders.

 

[oldgit]

those advocating an increase in tax want to remember what happened to the marine business when there was 25% vat on lesiure items in the 80s.

Wiped out british boat builders.

Really .....ever heard of Princess,Fairline, Sealine and Sunseeker ?

 

[Chrusty 1]

Not only that but the EU rules don't matter to us anyway. It's the Belgian laws that are the problem. If you could show that the Belgian laws don't follow EU guidelines that would be a good start.

Maybe the RYA could say exactly what Belgian and French laws are being being used to charge people.

The RYA are saying something, and it's here......

http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/530844/rya-using-red-diesel-in-foreign-waters-will-not-be-unlawful

 

[timbartlett]

The derogation stems from the 1930s ?? ...

Rubbish. The first fuel duty harmonisation directive was in 1992. Before that date, there would have been no derogation because there was nothing to be derogated from.

...We are so used to paying tax in this country that we actually have been brainwashed to believe that we are 'subsidised' or 'getting away with it' if we are not paying an outrageous fee to buy something.

Exactly so. If a mugger steals your wallet but allows you to keep a couple of quid for your bus fare is he "subsidising" you? Of course he isn't. The only differences between the mugger and the government is that the government has given itself permission.

The fact that we pay more for a fuel is nothing to do with Belgium, it is UK. Gov. the fact that our transport companies pay through the nose is nothing to do with the EU, It is UK. Gov
The fact that our lorry's get hit with huge road fund licenses is nothing to do with Belgium or the EU it is UK. Gov. Can you see the trend yet?...

Exactly so

...do you think that the belgiums will dip the tanks of a british fishing vessel and fine them? ...

No, because use of low-tax fuel in fishing vessels and commercial craft is specifically allowed.

The colour of the dye used, red or green or sky blue, does not matter, use of DYED diesel in pleasure craft is against the EU Directive, so say all EU countries, except UK & ROI(?).

Where does it say that?

All previous attempts to preserve jobs or certain " industries" by tweaking tax breaks has not been a resounding success in the past....

Tax cannot preserve jobs or industries: it can only damage jobs and industries.

...The EU Commission intention is that private users (boat as well as car) are not allowed to use tax discounted fuel in their engines...

Really? Where does it say that? I though the idea was to set minimum levels of taxation to remove market distortion.

 

[Vanilla]

Although im a raggie and so luckily have low diesel useage, like a few others contributing to this thread, I wanted to add my support and sympathy to the many mobo owners who will be badly affected by this extra cost.

Not all raggies have a "them and us" attitude towards mobos. We're all sailors at the end of the day but you do it fast and we do it very slow!!

 

[Chrusty 1]

Although im a raggie and so luckily have low diesel useage, like a few others contributing to this thread, I wanted to add my support and sympathy to the many mobo owners who will be badly affected by this extra cost.

Not all raggies have a "them and us" attitude towards mobos. We're all sailors at the end of the day but you do it fast and we do it very slow!!

Some of 'em wont be doing it all that fast, or all that often I reckon, perhaps displacement mobos will make a popular comeback? They certainly use a lot less fuel.

Like I said earlier, might have been on another thread, if you want to make a difference, you have to stand together, it's called solidarity, maybe a a National Union of Leisure Boat Owners, or NULBO for short?

I'll bet that idea will go down like a brick in a swimming pool!

 

[maby]

those advocating an increase in tax want to remember what happened to the marine business when there was 25% vat on lesiure items in the 80s.

Wiped out british boat builders.

Few, if any, of us are advocating an increase in tax. Some of us, myself included, are advocating recognition of the fact that the game is up. We will not be buying tax reduced fuel within two years - probably a lot less than that - and by continuing the fight, we are simply denying ourselves the opportunity to sail outside UK waters.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Few, if any, of us are advocating an increase in tax. Some of us, myself included, are advocating recognition of the fact that the game is up. We will not be buying tax reduced fuel within two years - probably a lot less than that - and by continuing the fight, we are simply denying ourselves the opportunity to sail outside UK waters.

From the RYA....

The RYA is insisting that the government's new red diesel proposals will not make it illegal to use marked fuel in international waters.

On Monday the Treasury announced new legislation that will force sailors buying red diesel from 1 April to declare that it will be only be used in UK waters.

The economic secretary to the Treasury, Chloe Smith, said the changes would 'ensure that red diesel can continue to be used as fuel for propelling private pleasure craft in UK coastal waters and on the inland waterways in accordance with current procedures'.

But in a statement the RYA has said that it is not illegal to use red diesel for 'propelling private pleasure craft in international waters', but the proposals give the impression that it is.

Gus Lewis, the RYA's head of government affairs, said: 'There is nothing in the government's proposals that would actually make the use of marked red diesel for propelling a private pleasure craft outside UK waters unlawful.

'However, what it is attempting to do is to make recreational boaters sign a declaration acknowledging a legal situation that doesn't exist under UK law.

'The RYA cannot support this proposed amendment to the Hydrocarbon Oils Duties Act 1979. I have been in contact with HMRC today about the consultation documents and will keep boaters informed of progress.'

The RYA's main point is that the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act, which regulates the red diesel use in the UK, only applies in British territorial waters anyway.

The RYA's statement adds: 'As it stands, the proposed revised content of the declaration would effectively require signatories falsely to acknowledge that they are aware of restrictions on fuel usage that do not in fact exist.'

 

[david_bagshaw]

Really .....ever heard of Princess,Fairline, Sealine and Sunseeker ?

that is just 4. what about the smaller firms that were wiped out, as an example the sort that fitted out colvic hulls professionally ?

 

[oldgit]

"Rubbish. The first fuel duty harmonisation directive was in 1992. Before that date, there would have been no derogation because there was nothing to be derogated from."



Can I put it differently ?

A reduced tax has been levied on diesel not for road use since around 1930,or possibly even earlier.This was originally to encourage mechanisation of our fishing and agricutural industries and make them more efficient producing at home the food we were importing from elsewhere.

 

[oldgit]

At the boat show this year a small company had a cabin cruiser on display,designed to fill a gap in the market,the first to do so for many years. ?
The short sighted aim to constantly go up market without worrying about entry level boats probably led to the demise of many builders.
The number of buyers per annum able to purchase a custom built Broom costing 3/4 of million quid etc ,you could probably get in a coffin.

 

[enterprise]

" the biggest majority of which I guess would be motorboat owners, the income they used to generate will be equaly distributed between those of us left."

Erm, I think you are very wide of the mark there, when ever I have visited a marina, the rags and sticks always outnumber the mobos.

However, marinas will have to remember, that the people that pay their wages are their customers, so if they piss 'em off, they will like as not go elsewhere, and if the customers don't, or wont go elsewhere, then they will be getting what they deserve.

Sorry Crusty, I think you missed my point there, If owners sell up because the cost starts to be a burden, its highly unlikely they are about to just move somewhere else.

When we first marina berthed, around 8 years ago, we joined a 4 year waiting list for a berth, 8 years on in our marina alone there are now over 60 vacant berths, one next to us has been vacant for two seasons, although used for visitors, they have been few and far between.
MDL have also introduced a scheme to 'introduce a friend' to try and generate some trade.

So where do you think all of these owners have moved too, and how do you think MDL will cover their operating costs if numbers continue to decline?

One stream of income was definitely visiting trade, like I said previously, we have cut costs by staying in home waters, I'm sure were not alone by doing so, agreed there are possibly more sail boats now, the boats that are leaving are Mobo's as pointed out in my previous post.

MDL have been good for us, never p.... us off as you put it but there's going to come a point where the price for berthing will need to rise just to keep going, I don't think they will ever become a charity.

So it's hard to see why you think my previous comments are 'wide of the mark', perhaps you know something I don't?

 

[maby]

which rule - please cite.



the eu rules say nothing of the sort.

Council Directive 95/60/EC of 27 November 1995 on fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene :

Article 1
1. Without prejudice to national provisions on fiscal marking, Member States shall apply a fiscal marker in accordance with the provisions of this Directive to:
- all gas oil falling within CN code 2710 00 69 which has been released for consumption within the meaning of Article 6 of Directive 92/12/EEC and has been exempt from, or subject to, excise duty at a rate other than that laid down in Article 5 (1) of Directive 92/82/EEC;
- kerosene falling within CN code 2710 00 55 which has been released for consumption within the meaning of Article 6 of Directive 92/12/EEC and has been exempt from, or subject to, excise duty at a rate other than that laid down in Article 8 (1) of Directive 92/82/EEC.


COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2003/96/EC :


Article 14
1. In addition to the general provisions set out in Directive
92/12/EEC on exempt uses of taxable products, and without
prejudice to other Community provisions, Member States shall
exempt the following from taxation under conditions which
they shall lay down for the purpose of ensuring the correct and
straightforward application of such exemptions and of
preventing any evasion, avoidance or abuse :

…

(c) energy products supplied for use as fuel for the purposes of
navigation within Community waters (including fishing),
other than private pleasure craft, and electricity produced
on board a craft.
For the purposes of this Directive ‘private pleasure craft’
shall mean any craft used by its owner or the natural or
legal person who enjoys its use either through hire or
through any other means, for other than commercial
purposes and in particular other than for the carriage of
passengers or goods or for the supply of services for
consideration or for the purposes of public authorities.

 

[ian38_39]

From the RYA....

The RYA is insisting that the government's new red diesel proposals will not make it illegal to use marked fuel in international waters.

On Monday the Treasury announced new legislation that will force sailors buying red diesel from 1 April to declare that it will be only be used in UK waters.

The economic secretary to the Treasury, Chloe Smith, said the changes would 'ensure that red diesel can continue to be used as fuel for propelling private pleasure craft in UK coastal waters and on the inland waterways in accordance with current procedures'.

But in a statement the RYA has said that it is not illegal to use red diesel for 'propelling private pleasure craft in international waters', but the proposals give the impression that it is.

Gus Lewis, the RYA's head of government affairs, said: 'There is nothing in the government's proposals that would actually make the use of marked red diesel for propelling a private pleasure craft outside UK waters

'However, what it is attempting to do is to make recreational boaters sign a declaration acknowledging a legal situation that doesn't exist under UK law.

'The RYA cannot support this proposed amendment to the Hydrocarbon Oils Duties Act 1979. I have been in contact with HMRC today about the consultation documents and will keep boaters informed of progress.'

The RYA's main point is that the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act, which regulates the red diesel use in the UK, only applies in British territorial waters anyway.

The RYA's statement adds: 'As it stands, the proposed revised content of the declaration would effectively require signatories falsely to acknowledge that they are aware of restrictions on fuel usage that do not in fact exist.'

It makes not one bit of difference what UK gov says about international waters as only international maritime law applys there and this is about duty which is a local tax. The problems only start when you hit another EU country's waters.
What the declaration does do is remove any obstacle to other country's imposing fines as soon as you get there. It can no longer be argued that the fine is not personal and can only be levied against the government that set the ruling.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Sorry Crusty, I think you missed my point there, If owners sell up because the cost starts to be a burden, its highly unlikely they are about to just move somewhere else.

When we first marina berthed, around 8 years ago, we joined a 4 year waiting list for a berth, 8 years on in our marina alone there are now over 60 vacant berths, one next to us has been vacant for two seasons, although used for visitors, they have been few and far between.
MDL have also introduced a scheme to 'introduce a friend' to try and generate some trade.

So where do you think all of these owners have moved too, and how do you think MDL will cover their operating costs if numbers continue to decline?

One stream of income was definitely visiting trade, like I said previously, we have cut costs by staying in home waters, I'm sure were not alone by doing so, agreed there are possibly more sail boats now, the boats that are leaving are Mobo's as pointed out in my previous post.

MDL have been good for us, never p.... us off as you put it but there's going to come a point where the price for berthing will need to rise just to keep going, I don't think they will ever become a charity.

So it's hard to see why you think my previous comments are 'wide of the mark', perhaps you know something I don't?

The point I am making is that marinas have had a licence to print money for a number of years. They have had it their own way but now things are changing, the fuel situation, and the economy will all be starting to impact on their market place. I think they would do well to drop their charges and have full marinas, than keep pursuing their present philosophy of charging ridiculous fees. Mind you, they have only got away with it because people with more money than brains have been willing to pay them.

When I said owners can go elsewhere, I suppose I was really meaning that they can have a look at the boating, and maybe downsize, or take up a different type of boating that wont entail having to fill the tanks of some gas guzzling monster, and or pay exorbitant marina fees.

 

[Chrusty 1]

It makes not one bit of difference what UK gov says about international waters as only international maritime law applys there and this is about duty which is a local tax. The problems only start when you hit another EU country's waters.
What the declaration does do is remove any obstacle to other country's imposing fines as soon as you get there. It can no longer be argued that the fine is not personal and can only be levied against the government that set the ruling.

I wasn't posting what the misgovernment are saying, I posted what the RYA are saying.

 

[volvopaul]

Sorry Crusty, I think you missed my point there, If owners sell up because the cost starts to be a burden, its highly unlikely they are about to just move somewhere else.

When we first marina berthed, around 8 years ago, we joined a 4 year waiting list for a berth, 8 years on in our marina alone there are now over 60 vacant berths, one next to us has been vacant for two seasons, although used for visitors, they have been few and far between.
MDL have also introduced a scheme to 'introduce a friend' to try and generate some trade.

So where do you think all of these owners have moved too, and how do you think MDL will cover their operating costs if numbers continue to decline?

One stream of income was definitely visiting trade, like I said previously, we have cut costs by staying in home waters, I'm sure were not alone by doing so, agreed there are possibly more sail boats now, the boats that are leaving are Mobo's as pointed out in my previous post.

MDL have been good for us, never p.... us off as you put it but there's going to come a point where the price for berthing will need to rise just to keep going, I don't think they will ever become a charity.

So it's hard to see why you think my previous comments are 'wide of the mark', perhaps you know something I don't?

I used to be an MDL bertholder but left as the price just kept going up and up, I visit many of there marinas to see so many empty berths, the last figures I heard overall there marinas were just 60% occupied berths, yet try doing a deal with them they just dont want to know, even if you contact the head office instead of the relevant marina your enquiring about.

Sooner or later its got to change as there charges to the crown estates, local councils etc just keep rising, and what about there discount to loyal berth holders for yard services has been slashed this year, its cheaper to shop round for a lift out than use the yard your at especially if your in warranty with a volvo engined boat. Im still not a believer in there fuel is at cost either, I monitor red diesel prices nearly every month and do the sums, there still making a profit on fuel thats for sure.

Im sure in the not too distant future there will be someone at breaking point, which means of course they will have to be loyal to there present bertholders too and boy is that going to hurt!.

What they could do is offer so much free fuel...... now theres a debate!

 

[volvopaul]

The point I am making is that marinas have had a licence to print money for a number of years. They have had it their own way but now things are changing, the fuel situation, and the economy will all be starting to impact on their market place. I think they would do well to drop their charges and have full marinas, than keep pursuing their present philosophy of charging ridiculous fees. Mind you, they have only got away with it because people with more money than brains have been willing to pay them.

When I said owners can go elsewhere, I suppose I was really meaning that they can have a look at the boating, and maybe downsize, or take up a different type of boating that wont entail having to fill the tanks of some gas guzzling monster, and or pay exorbitant marina fees.

Not sure about your comment " more money than brains" bit of an insult to most people I know with nice boats, ive yet to meet a lottery winner thats bought a boat who has not got a clue about the value of money, most people boat out of tax paid money I know of.

Yes id agree with you that to keep it going something has got to give in the near future, then it will be a battle between the berthing giants, whereby id say some marinas will near on empty, creating even more doom and gloom, matched with unemployment relating to the surrounding areas of the marinas involved.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Not sure about your comment " more money than brains" bit of an insult to most people I know with nice boats, ive yet to meet a lottery winner thats bought a boat who has not got a clue about the value of money, most people boat out of tax paid money I know of.

Yes id agree with you that to keep it going something has got to give in the near future, then it will be a battle between the berthing giants, whereby id say some marinas will near on empty, creating even more doom and gloom, matched with unemployment relating to the surrounding areas of the marinas involved.

It wasn't meant as an insult, it's just that when times were good people were splashing money around on all sorts of things, well now the bubble has burst. I will say it again, the only way forward as far as I can see is that individual boat owners make their own decisions about how to cope, or boat owners of whatever persuasion band together to create something that speaks with one powerful voice......The RYA??? I don't think so, not unless they are willing to get off their arses.

Think about it, it's your money that these marinas want to get their greedy mits on, so if boaters were united, we might stand a chance of getting them to listen. They are selling a product, and just like any other business they need customers to survive. The profits available to the marina industry have been huge, why do you think marinas have been sprouting up all over the place, they even want to build one at Appledore N. Devon, a drying river??? It aint like they can't afford to cut their customers a bit of slack.

C.