grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
Apologies, I interpreted your post as it being yourself proposing it was immoral for boat users to have "cheaper" diesel than car users on the basis a car was a necessity.
I think this is disgusting from a fellow boater
- Thread starter SolentPhill
- Start date
Apologies, I interpreted your post as it being yourself proposing it was immoral for boat users to have "cheaper" diesel than car users on the basis a car was a necessity.
rubberduck
Well-Known Member
Wrong forum to avoid silly posting IMHO. Thankfully not all on here are as shortsighted as the original offender in this case. Wonder if he has been in the banking industry at some stage
oldgit
Well-Known Member
All previous attempts to preserve jobs or certain " industries" by tweaking tax breaks has not been a resounding success in the past.Trades should stand or fall on their own efforts,one mans tax derogation is another mans increase.
Can think of no better way of reducing fuel imports than price at the pump.Cannot afford your hobby.....find something else...sailing seems to be cheap by all accounts.
Can think of no better way of reducing fuel imports than price at the pump.Cannot afford your hobby.....find something else...sailing seems to be cheap by all accounts.
Captain Daz
Well-Known Member
All previous attempts to preserve jobs or certain " industries" by tweaking tax breaks has not been a resounding success in the past.Trades should stand or fall on their own efforts,one mans tax derogation is another mans increase.
Can think of no better way of reducing fuel imports than price at the pump.Cannot afford your hobby.....find something else...sailing seems to be cheap by all accounts.
What trade's tax breaks were 'tweaked' and failed?
What trades are you quite willing to do without, that struggle to 'stand on their own efforts'? Farming? Fishing? Construction?
enterprise
Well-Known Member
All previous attempts to preserve jobs or certain " industries" by tweaking tax breaks has not been a resounding success in the past.Trades should stand or fall on their own efforts,one mans tax derogation is another mans increase.
Can think of no better way of reducing fuel imports than price at the pump.Cannot afford your hobby.....find something else...sailing seems to be cheap by all accounts.
'If you cant afford it...... find something else' unfortunatley that will undoubtably happen, as i'm sure it has already (look at berth availability), when the level of taxation becomes unbearable to yourself you will no doubt follow suit and swap to sail (unless thats what you do already) but until then feel free to preach.
Happily we can afford it for time being, making increasing sacrifices elsewhere but after an increase of nearly 200% in fuel cost over the past 3 years you have to wonder why we do it and where will it end, we did less than 60hrs last season, dayboating instead of extended passages, so we spent less at other marinas, locations etc, that will undoubtably result in loss of revenue to those that we would have previously visited and if that happens accross the board then guess where the shortfall in takings will be levied, equaly the falling number of bertholders, the biggest majority of which I guess would be motorboat owners, the income they used to generate will be equaly distributed between those of us left.
In the end we will all lose out.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Flying ... aren't there huge concessions on fuel price just to keep it competitive and discourage airlines from filling up in other countries ... ?
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
But then you pay the Air passenger Duty (APD) which is a tax, and is on the passenger instead of the fuel.
ian38_39
Well-Known Member
Not sure what marinas are like down on the South Coast but I would definitely say on the East Coast the majority of births are filled with sail and before you say anything I am not a sailor.
I have always stood behind the campaign to save red diesel, it is just a shame that people who use it do not stand behind those that have petrol in their tanks, that is the reason for me pointing out that all stand together only gets called when diesel is under threat and as the threat subsides the diesel crowed run off and crow smugly about how theirs is the only fuel to use and anyone else should be classified as insane.
It is of no benefit to anyone for tax breaks to be removed from diesel and as such the only reason that anyone would smile about it is the treatment dished out in the past from the people who now call for support. What is the old saying "be careful who you tread on on the way up"?
As said I am totally behind the cause to save some form of duty reduction for diesel, it is my intention to move up a size of boat sometime this year, if this happens I will have diesel engines so it certainly doesn't help me if the fuel goes up.
Just don't expect those that have been smirked at for years to come running quickly to heel.
As for a way forward, does anyone have one?
It is easy to sit and moan about it but the current status quo is over. Unless something new is bought to the table then red will disappear from coastal marinas very soon. There may be red inland but in all honesty for the fuel that inland boats use it will make no noticeable difference if it disappears completely.
The only way I can see is to classify the new 100% bio free ULSD as something other than red or white. Separate it from road fuel and get it classified. From the small amount of experience I have of European classifications that will be no small feat and will require lobbyists and a lot of time.
The RYA would seem the logical body to represent boaters but they are (whatever they claim) predominantly sail, where the loss of rebate will have less impact. For this reason you really need a group focused on motor boats.
I have always stood behind the campaign to save red diesel, it is just a shame that people who use it do not stand behind those that have petrol in their tanks, that is the reason for me pointing out that all stand together only gets called when diesel is under threat and as the threat subsides the diesel crowed run off and crow smugly about how theirs is the only fuel to use and anyone else should be classified as insane.
It is of no benefit to anyone for tax breaks to be removed from diesel and as such the only reason that anyone would smile about it is the treatment dished out in the past from the people who now call for support. What is the old saying "be careful who you tread on on the way up"?
As said I am totally behind the cause to save some form of duty reduction for diesel, it is my intention to move up a size of boat sometime this year, if this happens I will have diesel engines so it certainly doesn't help me if the fuel goes up.
Just don't expect those that have been smirked at for years to come running quickly to heel.
As for a way forward, does anyone have one?
It is easy to sit and moan about it but the current status quo is over. Unless something new is bought to the table then red will disappear from coastal marinas very soon. There may be red inland but in all honesty for the fuel that inland boats use it will make no noticeable difference if it disappears completely.
The only way I can see is to classify the new 100% bio free ULSD as something other than red or white. Separate it from road fuel and get it classified. From the small amount of experience I have of European classifications that will be no small feat and will require lobbyists and a lot of time.
The RYA would seem the logical body to represent boaters but they are (whatever they claim) predominantly sail, where the loss of rebate will have less impact. For this reason you really need a group focused on motor boats.
Captain Daz
Well-Known Member
I am new to the forum, can you point me in the direction of any threads where the diesel users show lack of support for petrol users.
I am beginning to think the boating world is nowhere near as nice as the cheery waves and greetings would have one believe.
I am beginning to think the boating world is nowhere near as nice as the cheery waves and greetings would have one believe.
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
I am in the "department of sail", and I can assure you that I do not rejoice at the thought of anybody being adversely affected by the increasing costs of anything. I am well aware that not all mobo owners are Mr. Moneybags, there are a lot that own a boat and make a lot of sacrifices to keep it running and to hang on to the pleasure that it gives them.
Trouble is, we Brits have never been very good at solidarity, but without it, you might as well just piss into the wind.
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
" the biggest majority of which I guess would be motorboat owners, the income they used to generate will be equaly distributed between those of us left."
Erm, I think you are very wide of the mark there, when ever I have visited a marina, the rags and sticks always outnumber the mobos.
However, marinas will have to remember, that the people that pay their wages are their customers, so if they piss 'em off, they will like as not go elsewhere, and if the customers don't, or wont go elsewhere, then they will be getting what they deserve.
Erm, I think you are very wide of the mark there, when ever I have visited a marina, the rags and sticks always outnumber the mobos.
However, marinas will have to remember, that the people that pay their wages are their customers, so if they piss 'em off, they will like as not go elsewhere, and if the customers don't, or wont go elsewhere, then they will be getting what they deserve.
maby
Well-Known Member
Fuel colour it the current focus, simply because it is the thing that the Belgians have been penalising sailors on, but it is a distraction really. The EU Commission intention is that private users (boat as well as car) are not allowed to use tax discounted fuel in their engines. The new HMRC declaration is just one more chapter in the story. Discounted fuel (of any colour) will be banned in the relatively near future.
yesod
Well-Known Member
except thats not quite true. the eu intention is a level playing field to stop market distortion. to that end, it specifies a minimum level of duty applied to fuel for leisure purposes.
now it so happens that the 60/40 split puts the tax paid by uk boats above that minimum level. happy co-incidence, but uk boaters are paying the appropriate level of tax according to the eu.
so the belgies are overstepping the mark with their penalisation of uk boaters, 'cos there is no eu rule which says a marker must not be applied to fuel on which duty has been paid.
maby
Well-Known Member
The rule says that marked fuel cannot be burned in the engine of a privately owned vehicle. The rules also say that private users cannot receive a tax discount on fuel they use for propulsion. There may be an arguement that it is permissible to sell a different grade of fuel, unmarked, to leisure sailors at a different rate of tax to road users, but the government would not allow that because it would be too easy for car drivers to abuse it.
yesod
Well-Known Member
kennythejoiner
Member
A Welsh Tory and proud and open about ..I have heard it all now ,you will get run out the valleys with a statement like that..
bumpy_the_dog
Well-Known Member
I've got a house in Lymington, the general resident's view is that sailors are unbelievably tight-fisted and the great majority of tourist money arrives by land not by sea!
rubberduck
Well-Known Member
I'm in the haulage industry so every time fuel goes up, we add another 1% or so to the fuel price, rounded up or course. So every time you yacht owners buy a loaf of bread you are paying for my boat, let alone the diesel.
Note to all Mobo owners, stop eating bread.
Note to all Mobo owners, stop eating bread.
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
Not only that but the EU rules don't matter to us anyway. It's the Belgian laws that are the problem. If you could show that the Belgian laws don't follow EU guidelines that would be a good start.
Maybe the RYA could say exactly what Belgian and French laws are being being used to charge people.
oldgit
Well-Known Member
Buy a boat you can afford to run ?
" when the level of taxation becomes unbearable to yourself you will no doubt follow suit and swap to sail (unless thats what you do already) but until then feel free to preach."
As with most boaters first boats were all petrol (60p a litre) but went diesel as soon as was able to afford,red was around 20p a litre at the time but nobody with their head screwed on and aware of world affairs could possibly imagine that state of affairs could go on for much longer and so it proved to be.
Surely any boat owner when buying a boat as a long term project, would wonder exactly how much his boat would cost him to run in a year or two.
At 2 ish gallons an hour from my old tub ,the price of fuel may need to rise a little more before the pips squeak down here.
" when the level of taxation becomes unbearable to yourself you will no doubt follow suit and swap to sail (unless thats what you do already) but until then feel free to preach."
As with most boaters first boats were all petrol (60p a litre) but went diesel as soon as was able to afford,red was around 20p a litre at the time but nobody with their head screwed on and aware of world affairs could possibly imagine that state of affairs could go on for much longer and so it proved to be.
Surely any boat owner when buying a boat as a long term project, would wonder exactly how much his boat would cost him to run in a year or two.
At 2 ish gallons an hour from my old tub ,the price of fuel may need to rise a little more before the pips squeak down here.