I think this is disgusting from a fellow boater

[Chrusty 1]

Our lorries pay far higher fuel rates than foreign lorries, and most of the road they will drive on will have tolls, that they have to pay.

I am with Paul, if foreign lorries have more that a 1/4 of a tank they should be taxed at UK rates. And yes I know UK lorries leave the UK with lower fuel levels and fill up on the other side, but tolls cancel that one out....

The point I was making is that if we impose sanctions on foreign lorries operating in the UK, then it's reasonable to suppose that further tariffs of whatever kind will be imposed on our lorries operating abroad.

It's all very well venting your spleen and talking about what we should do, but whatever we do, will have consequences, and you might not like 'em!

 

[volvopaul]

"the amount of foreign lorries on uk roads at any one time will far outweigh the amount of visiting uk boats to Belguim and beyond."

What about all the UK lorries using foreign roads I wonder? Do you think that the British transport companies would enjoy paying extra tax in reciprocation?

You have totally missed the point, its all about tax, do you know how much a lorry pays uk road tax? as far as im aware overseas lorries dont pay road tax yet they come here and use our road for free, so why should any uk lorry or car pay road tax say in france when there fuel charges are higher than ours to combat no road tax over there, thats how they collect there revenue, if we applied the same rule there would be no road tax dodgers here, simple fuel used= tax paid per mile/per litre.

Uk lorries abroad have already paid there road tax here, plus higher fuel charges to use foreign roads, we are loosing out for sure.

 

[Chrusty 1]

You have totally missed the point, its all about tax, do you know how much a lorry pays uk road tax? as far as im aware overseas lorries dont pay road tax yet they come here and use our road for free, so why should any uk lorry or car pay road tax say in france when there fuel charges are higher than ours to combat no road tax over there, thats how they collect there revenue, if we applied the same rule there would be no road tax dodgers here, simple fuel used= tax paid per mile/per litre.

Uk lorries abroad have already paid there road tax here, plus higher fuel charges to use foreign roads, we are loosing out for sure.

Nope, it's you that is missing the point, at least the one I am making, and that is whatever the current situation is now, it is irrelevant if we were to impose extra taxation or sanctions of any kind on foreign lorries, because it's more than likely that the countries of origin of the foreign lorries we wack with taxes, will wack us back just as hard, maybe harder, by imposing extra charges / taxes on our lorries using their roads.

I am not taking sides here, just making what seems to me to be a reasonable observation.

 

[volvopaul]

Nope, it's you that is missing the point, at least the one I am making, and that is whatever the current situation is now, it is irrelevant if we were to impose extra taxation or sanctions of any kind on foreign lorries, because it's more than likely that the countries of origin of the foreign lorries we wack with taxes, will wack us back just as hard, maybe harder, by imposing extra charges / taxes on our lorries using their roads.

I am not taking sides here, just making what seems to me to be a reasonable observation.

I take it your in the Road Haulage Industry then?, this is a boating forum so im not missing the point, the reason I quoted lorries in my previous post is to try and state some reasoning as to why Belgium should not allow us to cruise there waters with semi paid taxed fuel(in there view) when they and other EU countries outside the uk come here and use our roads for free. In my opion we do pay extra tax to use there roads, as I said its in the fuel price.

 

[Chrusty 1]

I take it your in the Road Haulage Industry then?, this is a boating forum so im not missing the point, the reason I quoted lorries in my previous post is to try and state some reasoning as to why Belgium should not allow us to cruise there waters with semi paid taxed fuel(in there view) when they and other EU countries outside the uk come here and use our roads for free. In my opion we do pay extra tax to use there roads, as I said its in the fuel price.

The trouble is, the tax we pay on fuel goes to our misgovernment, not to governments across the water. So we don't pay the Belgians or whoever to use their roads.

I can only guess that fuel prices are starting to bite within the mobo community? I'm a raggie, but please believe me when I say I have a great deal of sympathy for folk who have invested in a mobo when fuel prices (red) were stable and fairly low, only to find that the goal posts have moved and they cannot now enjoy their boat as much as they used to.

 

[volvopaul]

The trouble is, the tax we pay on fuel goes to our misgovernment, not to governments across the water. So we don't pay the Belgians or whoever to use their roads.

I can only guess that fuel prices are starting to bite within the mobo community? I'm a raggie, but please believe me when I say I have a great deal of sympathy for folk who have invested in a mobo when fuel prices (red) were stable and fairly low, only to find that the goal posts have moved and they cannot now enjoy their boat as much as they used to.

Thanks for your vote of sympathy, I can remember filling up in weymouth once at 12p per litre and there was a que of boats, not very often you see that, only at a weekend now.

Another bit, ive seen many boats this year that have not brimmed there tanks for the winter months, all down to cost.

 

[ian38_39]

But when we fill up in Belgium (not sure what there duty rate is so may be talking rubbish) generally they will have applied a duty rate lower than ours but on or above the EU minimum tax.

The fact that we pay more for a fuel is nothing to do with Belgium, it is UK. Gov. the fact that our transport companies pay through the nose is nothing to do with the EU, It is UK. Gov
The fact that our lorry's get hit with huge road fund licenses is nothing to do with Belgium or the EU it is UK. Gov. Can you see the trend yet?

All that EU member states want us to do is comply with the same legislation that they already do and we are supposed to. The fact that UK. Gov sets the duty rate so high in the first place is the problem, all you have to understand is despite improvements over the last 20 years, you are still living in rip off Britain and for that privilege you will pay. the reality is you can not in any fair society have one rule for the boat owner (who lets face it, even if not rich are unlikely to be struggling to heat the house) and another for the rest of the country, and before you say but we don't use it on the road. the tax rate is for propulsion. I am fairly sure you don't pay road fund license on your boat?

 

[Talulah]

I am fairly sure you don't pay road fund license on your boat?

No longer 'Road Fund License' but 'Vehicle Excise License'. Difficult to apply the former to boats but the latter on the other hand....

 

[oldgit]

They have...................

The government has recently introduced a green paper ? or consultative document regards charging foreign commercial users of UK roads,not sure how they intend to charge but a serious proposal that is intended to remedy this frequent complaint.Basically they have ensure whatever way they go about it complies with what happens elsewhere in EU.

 

[Sans Bateau]

4 years ago the UK government did what they always do (whatever the colour), they sat on the fence trying to appease everyone when EU rules were changed so that full tax had to be paid on leisure use of diesel. As we all know there was an outcry and eventually the 60/40 split was conceded. We should though have seen the current situation coming, Belgium is the first, but any other EU country could soon follow, and that is why I believe HMRC have said that the 60/40 split only applies to boats in UK waters. This puts any boat crossing the channel at risk of being fined, whos to say when some French official will try to make a name for himself.

I deeply sympathies for the average power boat owner, not so much with the owner of the £1mill new Sunseeker, if he can afford the boat he can afford the fuel, but the chap with the older, smaller (average?) powerboat who prefers to motor rather than sail. He is the one who will really be hit by the removal of the tax break when it comes, and it will. But lets not forget, its not just the tax that has pushed up the price of fuel, its the cost of the fuel itself, we see that every time we put nearly 100 quids worth in the car every fortnight.

As someone has already said, it has been noticeable the reduction in powerboat activity over the recent years, more seem to just spend their time tied up in the marina.

Keeping red diesel and the 60/40 split will effect sailing owners as there are proportionally more sail boats that cross the channel each year compared to power boats, hence the likelihood that at some point they will be subject to the same fines being seen in Belgium. Power boat owners who are more likely to cruise local waters will however not worry so much about the cross channel limitations. I base this statement on the proportion of UK sailboats you see in France compared to powerboats.

Should we loose the 60/40 split, change to untinted diesel, us sailing boat owners can cross the channel without the fear of fines, but the powerboat owner, who may well not cross the channel simply because of the cost of fuel anyway, will be the big looser.

Its a mess, like I said in my opening para, UK Gov try to please everyone. All they have done is to push the issue a few years down the line, now its back.

 

[l'escargot]

What is exactly the argument for leisure boaters paying less duty on diesel?

I have a boat with a diesel engine on which I pay reduced duty on the fuel and I have a boat with a petrol engine on which I pay full duty on the fuel.

What valid argument can be put forward for not paying it on both?

 

[GrahamHR]

...........as to why Belgium should not allow us to cruise there waters with semi paid taxed fuel(in there view)..

Tax free Belgium diesel is red. tax free Dutch diesel is red. ax free French diesel is red etc etc.

So, if the fuel in a visiing boat is containing a red dye, they can't tell whether it was bought legally in the UK or illegally elsewhere. Likewise, it's difficult for a UK boater to prove that it was all bought from a legal source in the UK.

Basically, diesel fuel sold in marinas needs to be free of red dye. If that has to be at road prices to prevent people fillingup their cars and trucks with it, maybe the HRMC should then allow boaters to claim the tax back at the 60/40 split. They could even do the same for us petrol boaters !

 

[yesod]

So, if the fuel in a visiing boat is containing a red dye, they can't tell whether it was bought legally in the UK or illegally elsewhere. Likewise, it's difficult for a UK boater to prove that it was all bought from a legal source in the UK.

given that red is available in those countries for commercial use, and will remain available for commercial use in the uk - they can't tell wether just be looking at the colour anyway. or do you think that the belgiums will dip the tanks of a british fishing vessel and fine them?

the answer, perhaps, is that we continue to supply red with the 60/40 fudge and boats that want to go abroad get coded and wave their commercial registration at johnny foreigner....

well - if they're going to play by rules, one thing the british is good at is obeying them. lets invent a very simple-to-achieve coding standard for 'lake solent' - make it easy to get a commercial reg.

 

[Talulah]

the answer, perhaps, is that we continue to supply red with the 60/40 fudge and boats that want to go abroad get coded and wave their commercial registration at johnny foreigner....

well - if they're going to play by rules, one thing the british is good at is obeying them. lets invent a very simple-to-achieve coding standard for 'lake solent' - make it easy to get a commercial reg.

Do the French allow their sailing school/charter boats to be classified as commercial for Diesel purposes?
I don't know the answer but being coded I would like to know.

 

[yesod]

i believe there is some duty-free fuel thing that the large mobos use. perhaps one of the antibes lot will spill the beans?

 

[fireball]

I'm not into the us and them, I don't notice the raggie v mobo issue at a Marina, we don't have any but when I visit other marinas they are always nice..

But when I read articles like this it does make me wonder why I use my diesel to go around them, and don't just stay on my course and as long as I don't break rules then what the hell
Quote from SB section.

So putting aside all this noise about Belgium etc, do we really think it is morally right for users of pleasure boats to get cheaper diesel fuel than drivers of diesel cars - for many of whom diesel may be a necessity rather than a luxury (eg school teachers and nurses travelling to work in places with limited public transport)?

IMHO the RYA made a mistake lobbying to keep red diesel, and it would be better if boat fuel was at road prices. For me this would imopact my annual sailing costs by less than 1%, but clearly more for gas guzzlers, which seems fair.

So lets start the campaign to end red diesel - and all this 80/20 nonsense



http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305457

Personally I'd prefer to keep paying as little as possible for my fuel - even if I do only fill up with ~300L per year - but I wouldn't want that to come at the expense of being able to travel abroad - even 300Lpa is too much to cart out to a mooring!

Whatever the argument - I believe you're right - the "it's not going to cost me much more so stuff the others" attitude is objectionable - whether or not we (as a boating community) could justify the lower duty tariff on fuel or not is a different question - we should be in this together and not just saying "I'm all right Jack"

 

[MBM_Greg]

What is exactly the argument for leisure boaters paying less duty on diesel?

I have a boat with a diesel engine on which I pay reduced duty on the fuel and I have a boat with a petrol engine on which I pay full duty on the fuel.

What valid argument can be put forward for not paying it on both?

Usually petrol engined boats are day boats, thus no heaters. Diesel engines are in bigger boats. Diesel isn't tax free, but only 60% is taxed as 40% is for heating, where as 100% of petrol is for propulsion.

That is the theory, not necessarily the practice.

 

[ian38_39]

That is just the theory that someone with a diesel boat has made up to justify the rebate on Diesel and not petrol.

My boat is a 34 foot flybridge with twin petrol engines. I readily admit that I do not use petrol for direct heating but if any boater that leaves their mooring can demonstrate that their heater uses 40% of their fuel through the year all I can say is it is a bloody big heater and a very hot boat, especially in the summer.

The justification then came down to the fuel used to charge battery's for domestic use and give hot water.

I have the same 12v requirement and the same hot water system.

All the 60/40 split did was keep our marine diesel at roughly the same price as the rest of Europe without involving White. It was always against the spirit of the agreement and was always going to make life difficult for near neighbours when trying to control fraud, not so much in UK visiting vessels, as they weren't getting the duty on these anyway, but on their own home fleet who could come to the UK and then use the same receipt to keep their tanks topped up for a couple of years.

Adopting Irelands Green diesel idea would technically solve the problems. Green diesel is not available in any other EU country so no one could continue to fill up with it.

The UK could set the minimum EU specified tax on the fuel, getting rid of the 60/40 issue as it would be 100% taxed at an agreed EU rate.

Commercial could have a dispensation to fill up with Green Duty free, thus meaning we only need one set of tanks at the marina.

No more chance of it being used on UK roads than that of red.

All it needs is some faceless EMP to rub shoulders with a few mates, agree to chuck them a few extra herring in the next vote and all the problems are solved at once.

 

[GrahamHR]

given that red is available in those countries for commercial use, and will remain available for commercial use in the uk - they can't tell wether just be looking at the colour anyway. or do you think that the belgiums will dip the tanks of a british fishing vessel and fine them?

.

I believe commercial fishing vessels in the EU are allowed to use red diesel, as are farm vehicles used solely off road. Not just UK registered commercial fishing vessels (and farm vehicles) So, no, I don't think the Belgians will dip their tanks and fine them. They are permitted to have red fuel in their tanks in Belgium. What is the offence ?

As to "they can't tell wether just be looking at the colour anyway" the source of the red dye cannot be proven. In Belgium (and the rest of the EU) fuel with red dye (to categorise it's tax or duty status) is not allowed in pleasure boats. A boater cannot possibly prove that all the red dye comes only from UK sourced fuel. HMRC take a very dim view if they find the slightest trace (ppb I believe ) of the red dye in a road vehicles tank; hence the rapid exodus of expensive 4x4 vehicles from Livestock/ Country Market car parks when the rumour spreads that HMRC are on the way !

 

[ian38_39]

I do suspect that the only reason that red has lasted this long is because MP's either own a boat or have a few very good friends who do.

Other than this I fail to see why UK Gov would spend so much time trying to defend such a small part of the population, when generally it would be a very popular move with the general public to charge boaters ten times as much.

That does not mean to say I want to see rebates removed, far from it, my next boat may well be diesel. Just genuinely can't see why anyone would expect the Government to continue to fight the corner, especially now they have raised the white flag.