I think this is disgusting from a fellow boater

I can't see why so much fuss over tax, which is a movable feast anyway.
Why would UKGov bend over backwards to make the case for some boaters who may want to visit Belgium to be able to use fuel with dye in it when it's quite possible they may decide to charge full duty on it anyway. Don't forget "we are all in this together".
Even if you all changed to petrol engined boats and started using PLG, they would put duty up on that.
The logical answer is to charge full duty on all fuel and allow different rates of rebates for different professional users.
Every month the user applies for his rebate. If you don't qualify, you don't get a rebate. Pleasure users could get their 40% rebate if they have heating on board.

In 10 years time it'll be like that anyway. Dead cert.
 
I think Marinas should charge more for Sail Boats, they contribute less revenue for the marina, they probably cause more complaints when their bloo&y ropes are flapping in the wind, from my experience they cause more damage in the marina (my boat was damaged 3 times in Port Solent, all by sail boats) and motor boaters are nicer people ;-)

We could call it a Marina Tax?
 
As to provide an antithesis to all the previous comments about how we, as a a nation are taxed heavier than our European counterparts, I provide the following quote;

"29. In terms of total taxation on both ownership and use, British drivers are taxed at the European average and pay, in relative terms, similar amounts to drivers in Finland, Denmark, Ireland, Italy and France. However, in respect of car ownership, British drivers pay average or below average amounts of tax, depending on engine size; and in respect of car use, British drivers are amongst the most highly taxed in Europe."

taken from http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtran/103/10304.htm


As for the sentiment of "I'm fine so go ahead and screw the other guy" you are forgetting that we have a Tory govt and that ethos can be found on page one of the Tory guide book.
 
People are great at moaning about individual taxes, but seldom look for the total tax burden, which as you say, is not that different around the civilised world.
 
l'escargot said:
What is exactly the argument for leisure boaters paying less duty on diesel?

I have a boat with a diesel engine on which I pay reduced duty on the fuel and I have a boat with a petrol engine on which I pay full duty on the fuel.

What valid argument can be put forward for not paying it on both?
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The argument has to be that it will further damage the boating industry,costing both jobs & income for the country. It will probably also result in a lack of services available to those with the few boats left, Marinas, fuel suppliers, engineers, General repairs etc.
 
rubberduck said:
The argument has to be that it will further damage the boating industry,costing both jobs & income for the country. It will probably also result in a lack of services available to those with the few boats left, Marinas, fuel suppliers, engineers, General repairs etc.
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Totally agree, you've only got to look at marinas and talk to a marina staff and engineers etc to see the impact already.

For me I simply rather not pay more for diesel than I have to as I have a limited budget, if it gets too expensive then I may have to give it and that appears to be the case with so many boaters already. I get fed reading the smug comments from some of the raggies and petrol boaters, is there really a need to talk up higher fuel prices because it won't affect you. It is a real pity boaters can't stick together.
 
it doesn't affect you if you aint going overseas, geese if youre going over use white! if not stop moaning. Making fuel all the same price will not stop anyone having a boat as a hobby if it does it means you couldn't afford it in the first place. life is a b***h you'll get over it.
 
As a petrol boater i would not like to see diesel prices going up but appealing to the better nature of people that have been smirked at and put down for years is a bit rich.
The all boaters together card is only ever played when diesel is threatened.
Where was the support when the 60/40 split came in and petrol boaters asked why they could not then claim the same 40% of their fuel at reduced duty rates.
 
SteveE said:
I think Marinas should charge more for Sail Boats, they contribute less revenue for the marina, they probably cause more complaints when their bloo&y ropes are flapping in the wind, from my experience they cause more damage in the marina (my boat was damaged 3 times in Port Solent, all by sail boats) and motor boaters are nicer people ;-)

We could call it a Marina Tax?
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LOL..... does the revenue not go on length....or is it in your marina charged by pollution?
 
ian38_39 said:
As a petrol boater i would not like to see diesel prices going up but appealing to the better nature of people that have been smirked at and put down for years is a bit rich.
The all boaters together card is only ever played when diesel is threatened.
Where was the support when the 60/40 split came in and petrol boaters asked why they could not then claim the same 40% of their fuel at reduced duty rates.
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its down to propultion and heating using the same fuel.
 
You mean just like diesel.
The only thing is most people if they are honest know that the amount of diesel used for heating is less than 1% for any boat that leaves its berth. Diesel boaters then justified it as domestic use for battery charging and hot water. Guess what, I have exactly the same usage.

The very idea that petrol used for domestic purposes should be rebates was instantly laughed out of town by the same people that are now shouting all boaters together.
 
ian38_39 said:
That is just the theory that someone with a diesel boat has made up to justify the rebate on Diesel and not petrol.

My boat is a 34 foot flybridge with twin petrol engines. I readily admit that I do not use petrol for direct heating but if any boater that leaves their mooring can demonstrate that their heater uses 40% of their fuel through the year all I can say is it is a bloody big heater and a very hot boat, especially in the summer.

The justification then came down to the fuel used to charge battery's for domestic use and give hot water.

I have the same 12v requirement and the same hot water system.

All the 60/40 split did was keep our marine diesel at roughly the same price as the rest of Europe without involving White. It was always against the spirit of the agreement and was always going to make life difficult for near neighbours when trying to control fraud, not so much in UK visiting vessels, as they weren't getting the duty on these anyway, but on their own home fleet who could come to the UK and then use the same receipt to keep their tanks topped up for a couple of years.

Adopting Irelands Green diesel idea would technically solve the problems. Green diesel is not available in any other EU country so no one could continue to fill up with it.

The UK could set the minimum EU specified tax on the fuel, getting rid of the 60/40 issue as it would be 100% taxed at an agreed EU rate.
Commercial could have a dispensation to fill up with Green Duty free, thus meaning we only need one set of tanks at the marina.
No more chance of it being used on UK roads than that of red.

All it needs is some faceless EMP to rub shoulders with a few mates, agree to chuck them a few extra herring in the next vote and all the problems are solved at once.
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The colour of the dye used, red or green or sky blue, does not matter, use of DYED diesel in pleasure craft is against the EU Directive, so say all EU countries, except UK & ROI(?).
 
ian38_39 said:
The very idea that petrol used for domestic purposes should be rebates was instantly laughed out of town by the same people that are now shouting all boaters together.
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yes - 'cos at a time when people were trying to find a solution to the loss of the derogation for diesel, arguing for a completely new marked fuel scheme with a new derogation was clearly the battle to chose.
 
As I said, all boaters together applys to everyone supporting the diesel cause over their personal use.
The 60/40 had already been agreed when the question was asked.


As for the dye, that was the reason for the few extra herring in the quota.

I can fully understand EU countrys not wanting red in the supply line anywhere other than commercial but with a bit of negotiation green or any other colour you can't make with red could provide a solution for all.

I realise that there will be some fuel marking legislation somewhere which would need amendment but at least if you go for green you would have an allie in Ireland.

And the fact that you would need an amendment would mean all the EMP's could claim their expenses for the process.
 
We had petrol engined boats and now own diesel, we bought before derogation ended and knew it would end shortly after, when making a choice for petrol the lower initial outlay was the deciding factor, for buying diesel the lower fuel duty meant although the initial outlay was dearer the running costs (single to twin) was roughly the same.

We feel privileged to own a boat (petrol or diesel), both earn less than the average family on benefits but we keep ploughing our incomes into the hole in the water that we call pleasure boating, it's far from a rich man's sport, more people in the same situation as us than the popular image of you need to be rich to own a boat, we sacrifice more and more each year to keep going.

Taxing the gas guzzling mobo's is just easy, after all, there the one's who can afford it, yeh right.

I'm sure the diminishing sight of mobo's will be a welcome additional benefit to some and lets face it, petrol boat owners have no interest in preserving lower fuel costs for diesel owners, why would they, a boats a boat after all, lower priced fuel was not enough of a draw in the first place to outlay the extra to buy a diesel.
Similarly raggies do not use the volume of red diesel so the price rise is negligible if going 100% white, full duty wouldn't be too much after all they only use a cupfull a year.

So we gas guzzling diesel boat owners will have to take it, and accept all the smugness and satisfaction from anyone who doesn't own a diesel powered mobo.

I don't think the 'lets stick together' will wash for some, most likely a secret smile of satisfaction at someone else's misfortune by most.

It's hard to argue the justification for rebated fuel, although those of us effected wish it wasn't under attack from all sides, it will undoubtedly end one day, when, who knows, rest assured when we have been punished for owning a diesel boat the attention will turn to someone else.

Lets hope for all our sakes we are all still here, see you out on the water (when we can afford to take the ropes off), don't forget to wave.
 
I would disagree, a lot of petrol boaters, me included have a vested interest in maintaining low priced diesel.
We are about as big as it is practical to go with petrol engines which means our next boat will more than likely be diesel.

If you look through the posts since this news broke you will see I have posted lots, not out of smuggness but with a will to help. It is just the all boatets together line that makes me smile as it is only used when diesel is under threat.
 
All boaters together has always been my line, and not just on red diesel.
But, there does seem to be more hostility coming from the department of sail, which makes it harder to stick to the high ground all of the time.

Divided, and arguing amongst ourselves is a surefire way of ruining it for everybody.
 
GrahamHR said:
I believe commercial fishing vessels in the EU are allowed to use red diesel, as are farm vehicles used solely off road. Not just UK registered commercial fishing vessels (and farm vehicles) So, no, I don't think the Belgians will dip their tanks and fine them. They are permitted to have red fuel in their tanks in Belgium. What is the offence ?
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commercially registered boats, such as
commercial fishing boats, commercially operated charter boats (with professional crew)
are allowed to use detax diesel, (price is similar like heating red diesel)
but the dye is BLUE !

Blue detax marine diesel is available in Belgium, Holland, France, Italy, Croatia,...
and I guess in a lot more eu country's.(but no personal experience in other EU country's)
nobody is allowed to use red diesel in boats in those country's.
 
Scubadoo said:
Totally agree, you've only got to look at marinas and talk to a marina staff and engineers etc to see the impact already.

For me I simply rather not pay more for diesel than I have to as I have a limited budget, if it gets too expensive then I may have to give it and that appears to be the case with so many boaters already. I get fed reading the smug comments from some of the raggies and petrol boaters, is there really a need to talk up higher fuel prices because it won't affect you. It is a real pity boaters can't stick together.
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+1

If this does happen it will be another boat sold, most buyers are from Europe there are more boats leaving the uk than arriving, there are more spaces in all marinas especially the cheaper ones, Marina owners need a certain revenue to cover costs and make money if they don't make it prices go up that will effect everyone.

So like it or not these campaigns will cost you in the long run, there should not be a them and us, this post has covered a lot of valid points that should be put forward as a strong argument of solidarity. I don't want the told you so brigade in 5 yrs digging up these posts, and saying how right they were.

I also don't want yachties regretting action now, so silly postings like the the one I replied to in first post don't help
 
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