I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....

Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
why is it thought the merchant vessel will not alter for the crossing yacht ? following the traffic separation scheme does not make the merch the stand on vessel, and so long as the yot has a course 90 degrees to the lane he has nothing to fear accept fear itself. the merch is the give way vessel


[/ QUOTE ]

P'raps you should have read the first question more carefully..... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
yacht is motoring across a shipping lane (on the correct heading) and a cargo ship, traveling along the lane, is coming towards the yacht on the starboard side.

[/ QUOTE ]
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

aha - caught me out with me trousers down /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

the yot word is a red herring, and although the question is badly worded I assume it means the yot has the merch on its stbd side

ok - same issue ......... but I cant see how the yot would have the speed advantage so the answer is simple innit, slow down or bold to stbd - ffs, 178 posts on this issue /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

Has anybody mentioned just turning round (as in a 180 degrees)...? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

dunno, havnt you read all the other posts either /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

"Now, now, SBC, I just think after all these years, you're a tad upset at discovering there is no obligation to hang a right in a x'ing situation. "

Nobody has said that there is an obligation to turn to starboard - all we are saying is that it is most often the sensible thing to do. It is likely to cause less confusion by making your intentions abundantly clear to the other vessel than faffing about under his bows.
You are not "obliged" to behave in a seamanlike manner in a TSS - feel free to behave like a WAFI if you want to, but please stop advising less experienced folks to behave in such a silly way.
Maybe if you ever venture out there for a third time, you will get the crap scared out of you because of your un-seamanlike ways, and learn why it is better to do what the big boys would like you to do..... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
John
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

>all we are saying is that it is most often the sensible thing to do<

(pulling on barrister's wig)

"So what you are also saying, Mr Lane is that sometimes it is not sensible to turn to starboard. Thank you m'lud, I've finished with this witness."

>It is likely to cause less confusion by making your intentions abundantly clear to the other vessel than faffing about under his bows.<

I still fail to see (thick I know) why a 90º turn to port would not also be making my intentions abundantly clear, and it would be far from "faffing about under his bows" given that I would be a mile or so off his port side and travelling parallel to him in the same direction, but slowly.
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

This is getting silly and a bit tedious. All I will say is if you are always going to stay a mile off each vessel in a busy TSS, no wonder you have only succeeded in crossing twice /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
John
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

Actually never did change course in the TSS, just stuck to the 90º crossing angle. All we did was slowed the boat down (Sigma 38) when we had constant bearings by detrimming the sails until the bearing started changing, then powering up again. Nobody seemed to mind (if they'd even noticed us!).
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
going back to the original question

is it better to slow down or turn to port ........... either will avoid a close quarter situation so both are equally valid

however, and I say this without reading all the previous posts, why is it thought the merchant vessel will not alter for the crossing yacht ? following the traffic separation scheme does not make the merch the stand on vessel, and so long as the yot has a course 90 degrees to the lane he has nothing to fear accept fear itself. the merch is the give way vessel

as for crossing ahead or astern, to cross ahead you need either a speed advantage or plenty of sea room and it must be done in plenty of time - unlikely ina yot

as for a yot electing to cross astern of a merch, thats ok if done in plenty of time with a bold alteration ........ depending on the circumstances of the case. whats to say the singlehanded yottie has to nip down below so luffs up ...... is anyone suggesting he is breaking the colregs by not standing on /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

or should I have read through |ALL those other offerings before jumping in with both feet /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep - you should read it all ... especially the original question ....

The yacht is :

a) motoring
b) on the port bow of the ship who is proceeding along the TSS
c) crossing TSS

So the ship is stand-on anyway regardless of TSS. The yacht is give-way vessel.
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
going back to the original question......
or should I have read through ALL those other offerings before jumping in with both feet

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, Landaftaf, just the first one.

The yacht mentioned is a 'power-driven vessel'...... Rule 15 applies. With another power-driven vessel approaching from starboard such that a risk of collision exists, she is obliged to keep clear..... " and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid passing ahead of the other vessel."

All else is secondary.

Are we now 'go' for another 500 views and 150 more specious arguments?


/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif


( Looks like Nigel 'n me are singing from much the same hymnsheet..... )
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
Now, now, SBC, I just think after all these years, you're a tad upset at discovering there is no obligation to hang a right in a x'ing situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have just proven that you haven't read my answers correctly. I have never said that you cannot hang a left ... What I said in fact is that I wouldn't hang a left unless exceptional circumstances - based on near all seaman (obviously you wouldn't) would expect the yacht to turn to stbd and pass astern - the sensible thing to do.

Go back and read again and read ALL - don't do the typical Forum trick of selecting a part passage to quote ....
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
) and a cargo ship, traveling along the lane, is coming towards the yacht on the starboard side

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmm - maybe I misread it but I saw it as being a cargo ship coming towards the yacht on the stbd side (sic)

coming towards the yacht - i.e. closing the yacht

on the stbd side - i.e. which was on its stbd side

whare did you get the cargo ship was on the yachts stbd side ?

now I am not saying everyone is wrong except me, but isnt it odd the sentance can have opposite meanings /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

OFFS

The basic rule is don't get run down - whether you were right or wrong you are still in deep [--word removed--].

The rule of right angles in a TSS is to get you across it in the least possible time. ie to put yourself in danger for the shortest time possible.

If you turn towards the ship then you close quickly - and are able to resume the 90deg crossing sooner than if you turn away from it.

No matter which side a ship was closing on me in a TSS I'd tend to turn towards it - unless there was a very sound reason to turn away, like getting to blazes back out of the TSS again!

Think of it as jay-walking!! Similar results if it goes wrong! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

anyone want to buy a boat /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif this is all getting very depressing , even the coast guard haven't answerred yet , but would anyone listen to them if they did /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

Come on Dave, nil desperandum!

99.9% of the known world recommends a turn to starboard, including my contact who wrote the book on the subject.

Seems clear to me.
/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Time for bed.
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

said Zebedee ,,,,,,,, anyone asked him yet ,, I'm sure he'd go to starboard too but you never know
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

are you talking from an individual yotties point of view of the colregs

[ QUOTE ]
No matter which side a ship was closing on me in a TSS I'd tend to turn towards

[/ QUOTE ]

I sincerely hope so ..... cos its buffoons like you who cause such confusion to others who transit traffic separation schemes /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
) and a cargo ship, traveling along the lane, is coming towards the yacht on the starboard side

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmm - maybe I misread it but I saw it as being a cargo ship coming towards the yacht on the stbd side (sic)

coming towards the yacht - i.e. closing the yacht

on the stbd side - i.e. which was on its stbd side

whare did you get the cargo ship was on the yachts stbd side ?

now I am not saying everyone is wrong except me, but isnt it odd the sentance can have opposite meanings /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Go on - you know you should .... go back to very first post that started it all and read his text ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've given up hope of seeing an end to this thread !! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

And to add one more . . . Paul Boissier, in understanding the Rule of the Road, (Amazon listing) gives as one of his examples this crossing situation (the one in the original question) and advises against a turn to port.

Mark
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

You seem depressed as there is no correct answer - but there is.

All agree that the motoring yacht is the give way vessel and all agree that it must avoid the stand on ship.

I think one confusion is in peoples imagination of the hyperthetical situation you are in at the point where you decide that maintaining course would lead to a collision, some may be imagining 50' from the bows - then reversing course is best option, while I suspect the majority are considering the point when you decide that some action is necessary when the ship is some way away.

Realistically I think most would recognise the situation (easier with yacht fitted MARPA) and finally change course when about 2 mls away.

If 2mlls away turn to Port or starboard or slowing down/reversing course will achieve the collision regs requirement of not impeding the stand on ship and all these are the correct answers.

However the majority agree that turning enough to starboard to signal your intentions and then crossing the stern of the stand on vessel achieves your aim of crossing the shipping lane in the quickest possible time. This is therefore most peoples prefered option.

Again though we must consider what situation people are imagining, is there is one stand on vessel or a gaggle of ships en-echelon? Its then a bit like crossing a 6 lane highway -do you do it when there is only one car coming your way or if there are a stream of cars in each lane is it sensible to wait (in the case of the motoring yacht to slow down or reverse course) until its clearer to cross.
 
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