I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....

>yes I know you'd be going against the flow but it would only be a short time and would put you less off course than the alternative <

Rule 10 (b) A vessel using a traffic separation scheme shall:
(i) Proceed in the appropriate traffic lane in the general direction of traffic flow for that lane.

Rule 10 (c) A vessel shall so far as practicable avoid crossing traffic lanes, but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.

Rule 10 (j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane.
 
I agree. The turn to port prolongs the situation and does not eliminate the risk of a close quarters situation developing. Rule 15 also applies, and the RYA comment on that is that in 99% of such situations the correct action for the give way vessel is to alter course to starboard. I would rather tuck behind the stern of the ship as Sailfree says.

What would you do if the ship was approaching from your port side in a TSS - I would turn to port and tuck behind again.
 
Rule 2. Good seamanship will prevail..... so turning to starboard in this case, given the water being referred to could place the boat close to the convergence of two TSS systems, and would make matters far worse.... by prolonging the time in the scheme by a considerable length, with diverging heavy traffic.

So agree and disagree... good seamanship is paramount, but good seamanship isn't following the rules blindly, its making intelligent intepretation of them, demonstrating clear intention, and not getting yourself into a mess.

IF the decision to turn to port is made early, and clearly, then the OOW will see what has happened, and there is little or no risk involved... plus, you haven't contravened the rule about travelling the wrog way in a seperation scheme.
 
If you are able to count the rivets, forget the Colregs

because you must be Doctor Who, and aboard the Tardis! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

No rivetted ships in commercial service now. As late as the 1960's, rivets were used for frames and for higher tensile sheer strakes, but those ships have turned into concrete rebars long since.
 
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IF the decision to turn to port is made early, and clearly, then the OOW will see what has happened, and there is little or no risk involved... .

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Turning to port does not resolve the situation. A clear turn to starboard clearly does, there is only ONE situation in the Colregs (well may be two if you take overtaking into consideration) that recommends a turn to port. Rule 19, poor vis, vessel being overtaken is recommended to turn to port to avoid vsl appraoching on stbd qtr.

You must maintain 90 degrees, an early move or speed reduction would be appropriate only if outside the TSS, as part of the usual monitoring process, and unrelated to a collision risk situation.

Once astern the vessel your TCPA will apear negative to the OOW and everyone is smiling.

Yours aye

JackIron
 
Why in Horror?

I don't have a copy of the laws and rules in front of me but assuming that Twister Ken has quoted correctly to turn to Stbd. would appear to contravene the rule about heading in the general direction of the flow of traffic.

Good seamanship would assume an inteligent interpretation of the rules and clearly from the varying answers people are interpreting differently.

I am glad I asked the question because clearly I am not the only one who is not 100% sure of the correct course of action.
 
this is where the confusion comes in for us learners , and Ken , yes I know it goes against the rules but it also doesn't make sense to prolong the risk , maybe I shouldn't have got involved in this grown ups debate , but I'm trying to understand the practical aspects , not just what it says in the books . I would have thought that a short breach of regs would be better than a prolonged risk of collision , regardless of the fact that it would get you through the TSS faster , which I believe is another of the rules
 
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Turning to port does not resolve the situation.

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Why Not?

The stand on vessel stands on, you are heading in the same direction as the flow of traffic and once the danger has passed you can turn back to 90 degrees?

I am not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand the best course of action.

David
 
OK, put it in driving terms. You arrive at a roundabout where you want to go off to the right. Instead of spending too much time on the dangerous busy congested roundabout, you pop around the roundabout anticlockwise and off the right exit.

In doing so, you are breaking the regulations, and acting in a way which will cause confusion as other drivers will not be expecting this action, hence more likely to cause a crash.
 
Sorry I am with Jack Iron on this one. Shipping lanes are often very busy and can be difficult to cross as if you aim to miss one ship you immediately head for a different problem.

The ships tend to be between 22 to 28kts and like lorries on a motorway overtake each other very slowly. They therefore are often en echelon, never steaming behind each other but in a series of different tracks but all heading on the same bearing.

I therefore want to get out of this shipping lane as quickly as possible (ever has a fouled prop in a shipping lane and no wind? - I have!)

You get out of a shipping lane as quickly as possible by maintaining speed and crossing at right angles. As per my previous post I deviate from this only for a short while when I make an early and obvious change of course and head for the stern of the crossing ship constantly changing my heading aiming at the stern as the ship passes across in front of you until you are back onto your original heading of crossing at right angles.

I would avoid turning to Port as it leaves you going along the shipping lane, being in it for a lot longer as the overtaking speed is say only 22kts - 6kts and the next gaggle of ships may be even more difficult to cross.

For any one inexperience try to hitch a lift on the scuttlebutt Cherbourg weekend trip in September where hopefully all the experienced sailors will do it right!

Before I am corrected yes going to Cherbourg from Solent does not cross a shipping lane but all the ships will have just exited one and be entering another (Joberg & Dover/Calais controls). They are therefore in a nice (often dense) stream and complicate it even further by some obeying the collision regs making a very small alteration of course to just miss you based on their Radar (assuming you are the stand on vessel) while many appear to assume that as they are bigger than you they can bully their way through.

I am probably wrong but I never insist on being the stand on vessel and show early on that I am prepared to alter course. Its a judgement thing and this year I will check my MARPA so that I know the distance that I consider close enough before I change course.
 
It's always fun to debate the colregs but...

Rule 10
Traffic Separation Schemes
(a) This rule applies to traffic separation schemes adopted by the Organization and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other rule.

(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane.

You will always be the give way vessel on an average length yacht.

I would always, always turn to starboard. And as a former OOW, I would always hope that any give way crossing traffic would do likewise.

NB when meeting cross channel ferries some of the biggest ships in the world with 20+ meter drafts will give way and make bold alterations of course to make their intentions clear. If everyone plays by the rules, nobody gets hurt.
 
I don't believe 10 b would apply to action taken to avoid collision.

I agree with the "hard to starboard" approach - my usual behaviour is to aim at a point just behind the stern and to gradually turn back on course as the vessel crosses ahead
 
Yes I too sail on East Coast, and except for the strange arrangements off the Humber TSS are things I don't often come across.

But there are routes that are heavily trafficed as well as channels into and out of Tyne, Tees etc - All of which can pose their problems.
 
two hours and eighteen miles is a bit different to nipping behind one heavy to avoid prolonging the exposure , he pushed it a bit far in most peoples opinions I would have thought
 
If you are trying to learn the collision regs an easy way is to imagine it at nightime.

If you can see their Red (port) light you must not go but pass astern of them.

If you see their Green light (starboard) you are stand on vessel (except in a shipping lane where you must not impede a ship) but even on the sea and not in a shipping lane only until a collision situation is apparent then you have an equal obligation to avoid a collision. With relative size a self presevation obligation as well!

If you see both Red and green - get the [--word removed--] out of there as he is heading straight for you. The speed of these big vessels is alarming and even more so in fog.

I sail my boat on the sea in a similar way that I ride my motorcycle. There are rules that I try to follow but the self preservation one takes precedent!!
 
Thanks Sailfree,

I have done the Solent / Cherbourg trip a few times as crew and crossed the north sea both ways a couple of times too (as skipper). When faced with the situation I have always gone for the turn to Stbd and aim for the stern approach but was never 100% sure I was right. Opinion here does still seem to vary /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
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You will always be the give way vessel on an average length yacht.


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No - that is clearly wrong.

The colregs make it absolutely clear that "give way" and "not to impede" are distinct obligations - Rule 8 makes it clear that the vessel of passage continues to be give way vessel when risk of collision exists.
 
if it was that simple this argument wouldn't keep coming up and confusing the hell out of us learners , I'm probably wrong but surely it's better to reduce the time you're in the TSS by nipping through , a bit like running over a dual carriadgeway on foot ( obviously not a busy one ) if you know you have enough time to clear the system well ahaead of the next heavy you're in peoples way for less time . If you only slow down the OOW can't easily tell what your intentions are , if you turn to port and sail alongside you're in their way for longer

Sorry to be a pain but you can see the problem I'm having getting my head round it when the experienced sailors can't agree
 
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