I hate to do this...but

Rigger Mortice said:
I very much doubt that that was the reason. We were told that IPC had received threats of legal action and I don't think Grant would have made such a threat.
I'ld lay money on it being Racno that got the thread pulled.
Unless you know that your version is correct?
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The original thread went so way off course it was not worthy of a listing on here...

Yes complaints all over but in fairness this thread is almost a repeat of the last without the heated discussion..

Oh and the old one wont be coming back for far too many reasons..
 
Sea Spray

There is a view that the swamping of all forum over the last 5 years that had the word 'anchor' in a thread by the name of a well known product, and then the constant repetition of that name in any reply was a very effective form of advertising. It might be noted that the company involved with this apparent misuse of the forum almost never paid for advertising in any hard copy magazine. Effectively their advertising was the forum. It actually seemed contradictory that YBW allowed this to happen, without editing the repetitious use of the brand name, as free advertising on YBW reduced the opportunity for income to YM et al. Equally when Fortress, Manson and Anchor Right et al come on the forum their wrists are wrapped hard if there is any indication of commercialism. So subliminal advertising was OK but overt promotion not. We the forum members were allowed to be subjected to this subliminal advertising, I read the brand name on every other line once, but were denied obvious comercial promotion - that we would recognise as such.

To continue to repeat that name now, under the view that any mention of the name is good advertising, might be distasteful to many, including me. I liked Rickety Anchors, but this might have been banned?

However it is bazarre - we have proven abuse of RINA certification, we have had insulting, distasteful, defamatory comment on the forum. We have had forum swamed with this single brand name. We have serious allegations of fraud, replacement of a hi quaility steel with a lower qaulity, which is possibly dangerous as well as deceitful and there are still people out there willing to defend the product. This is simply incomprehensible - there are a number of equally good and in many cases better product. How can you defend the indefensible.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
I very much doubt that that was the reason. We were told that IPC had received threats of legal action and I don't think Grant would have made such a threat.
I'ld lay money on it being Racno that got the thread pulled.
Unless you know that your version is correct?
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I did not threaten legal action to get the thread pulled.

I would rather it had stayed online than deleted.
 
Djbangi said:
To continue to repeat that name now, under the view that any mention of the name is good advertising, might be distasteful to many, including me. I liked Rickety Anchors, but this might have been banned?
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OK - I understand now. It just reads strange (even childish) to the uninitiated...
However it is bazarre - we have proven abuse of RINA certification, we have had insulting, distasteful, defamatory comment on the forum. We have had forum swamed with this single brand name. We have serious allegations of fraud, replacement of a hi quaility steel with a lower qaulity, which is possibly dangerous as well as deceitful and there are still people out there willing to defend the product. This is simply incomprehensible - there are a number of equally good and in many cases better product. How can you defend the indefensible.
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Don't know. I have a knock-off CQR which I don't really like. I had been seduced by the rocna (sorry) hype but for sure I'm not impressed now. TBH I am now totally bemused which anchor I would buy to replace it....
 
Sea Spray

Sadly, none of this is childish - there might be attempts at humour but its all quite serious.

And still no word from the manufacturers nor their distributors. Given that not that many actually read forums (in terms of the total numbers of yacht owners). Assume the manufacturers and distributors do (seems a fair assumption?). Is it alright that the distributors continue to sell without warning to the uninitiated purchaser and without advising previous customers of the possible problems?
 
Dumbmer and Dumbmer

Justice for anchor manufacturers as exposer has created obvious looming problems for CS and Co that are most certainly justified, C.S. from the very out set started a new area in marketing, slanderous comments on all anchor designs past and present, figure fixing of anchor testing, low is the only way you can describe marketing by directing traffic from a deceased fellow competitor, yes I could go on.

Why P.S and son may be passionate as to how their anchors were made they had no regard for anyone but themselves when it came to marketing, oddly their tactic’s attracted one of their own, a distributor that couldn’t care a less about quality as long as the sales were coming in, on the other hand I must commend Steve as he has removed much of the slanderous **** on other anchor designs from his web site, something you would never see C.S. do.

Here we have on one hand the designers with their new marketing methods, on the other a manufacturing company producing inferior product as to that of the designers spec’s, just amazing as neither one of them had to deploy such tactic’s to sell a product.

Not unlike any two pack mix, a balanced input from both sooner or later it had to go off; unfortunately it has set for all the wrong reasons. I think a meltdown to separate is the only way of starting afresh.

You know many forums are all too ready sometimes to edit, that’s OK but let’s not forget they two were targeted in C.S. marketing methods, for instance and I probably don’t have to remind anyone, C.S. would direct traffic direct to his web site using forums, it was to market with a double prong approach, desecrate all anchors design and promote his own. To the moderators, this was all for free and not once in his reign of deceit did any one of you state that his actions could be libelous, edited him or try to prevent him from bashing competition, you were simply a tool, so ease up on the competition, all that has been said is basically proven and all that dumber and dumber have been saying is now proven BS.

Your forums should also be congratulated as the sword you unwittingly gave C.S. to wield has now, by allowing people to have their say, has been turned upon him, that is what I call poetic justice, your forum has allowed much comment and judgment to be made to get a final verdict, if I was awaiting trial I cannot think of a fairer trial than the one we have been witnessing and would welcome the same, it’s the old saying good is prevailing right before our very eyes so let it flow.

Grant king would agree with me on this one, bend a piece of galvanized mild steel, the galvanizing rarely deteriorates, do the same thing with Bis 80 and you will get some separation or visible cracks in the galvanizing. I would bet on it, the bent Venice shank is that of mild steel.

I am with Dujbangi, retailors have a duty of care to customers, they are clearly in the firing line and are ducking their head’s, in some cases are still prepared to push RINA S/H/H/Power certification, like I said earlier, the gravy train, probably a bit stretched but the tactic’s being used to sell rickety anchors do have elements of it.

Rex.
Anchor Right Australia.
 
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Rigger Mortice said:
I'm sure it wasn't. Your posting was concise, clear, to the point and, I think it is fair so say, learned. Beautifully formed, wonderful use of words. As postings go it was one of the best.

I hope that means that you can sleep at ease with yourself tonight. :):)
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Agreed, perhaps one of the most eloquently put post out there. Well that may be overboard, but probably wasn't the post.
 
I am having the same problem in choosing an anchor but are Manson liable to publish anything that detracts from their product?
I would like to hear views from people who have used anchors is real life but do not want to start a new thread.
 
Nostrodamus said:
I would like to hear views from people who have used anchors is real life but do not want to start a new thread.
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You've absolutely hit the nail on the head there Nostrodamus!

If you scour the internet you will find hundreds of posts by real users of both Rocnas and Manson Supremes and, unless someone can show me otherwise, every real user I've discovered has been delighted with their new generation anchor and found it a big improvement on the last generation anchor, including me!

I only went for the Rocna because the deeper shank on the Manson would have been too tight a fit over my bow roller and some modification would have been required.

The discussion on this forum is clearly very relevant to anchor choice and I do hope that evetually there will be some clarification about how many Rocnas might be affected to what degree, but, unless people like the owners of the Venice Rocna start to post on the forums and give us all a lot more detail about what happened and why, the overwhelming weight of opinion out there in the "real" world will continue to be that Rocnas are great anchors (and perhaps, with one or two exceptions, they are!).

Richard
 
Thank you Richard,
This is part of the Dilema I have. Rocna owners or those who have spoken out say they are good but there must be a doubt in the mind over there intergity if you have a latter china model. Also on the evidence presented so far would you risk your family on one. At this time I couldn't and thatis why I am trying to solicit the views of others.
 
In the absence of other owners giving reports are there any anchor manufactures willing to give me an anchor to test if I send honest views to them once a month. We will be anchoring where we can but I will send a totally unbiased view.


Not currently associated with any anchor manufacturer.
 
The more I think about this idea the more I like it.
If the anchor manufactures believe in their products then they would be willing to put them to some real world tests by genuine cruisers.
I am sure there are other live aboards who spend a lot of time at anchor who would willingly participate on the agreement that all our findings were submitted to an independent person or magazine for publication.
We all want an independent test we can rely upon rather than some tugboat dragging anchors around.
As sailors, would a test like this mean more than a manufactures website or one day test carried out in some obscure or not so obscure magazine?
Does anyone know of any independent tests such as this published anywhere?
I for one would like to see this.
 
Great idea.
While we're at it are there any boat manufacturers who who like a six month independent test carried out? I'ld like to try a new radar too, then a new wardrobe of sails. I wonder what I should re-engine with?


Nice try, but it won't happen. :)

In any event the likes of Racno go to great length to make sure they can determine the result of tests before they take place. They demand to know what the testing procedures are and seek to get them altered to comply with their agenda, they try to be present during the tests to influence them, they select the "off the shelf" sample etc etc. The last thing they want is independence.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
In any event the likes of Racno go to great length to make sure they can determine the result of tests before they take place. They demand to know what the testing procedures are and seek to get them altered to comply with their agenda, they try to be present during the tests to influence them, they select the "off the shelf" sample etc etc. The last thing they want is independence.
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Notice how all those manufacturers who were leaping in to castigate Rocna previously all went quiet when real numbers began to be discussed? I for one would love to see the results of tensile testing on those produced in aluminium versions, or stainless, whether austenitic or duplex.

As was said a long time ago it's easy to announce that your anchors are made from 'High tensile' materials. The next anchor made in those materials that can make 800 Mpa will be the first, by a long way.

Several might be quite pleased to attain the figures measured for the 'substandard' Rocnas.
 
vyv_cox said:
Notice how all those manufacturers who were leaping in to castigate Rocna previously all went quiet when real numbers began to be discussed? I for one would love to see the results of tensile testing on those produced in aluminium versions, or stainless, whether austenitic or duplex.

As was said a long time ago it's easy to announce that your anchors are made from 'High tensile' materials. The next anchor made in those materials that can make 800 Mpa will be the first, by a long way.

Several might be quite pleased to attain the figures measured for the 'substandard' Rocnas.
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I'm not sure that that's fair. AFAIK nobody has queried the figures for other manufacturers, unless you are now doing so?

Manson certainly produced the test result for their anchors, as well as Racno, and their figures seemed to be pretty good. (Though I hasten to add that I don't understand the difference between 800 Mpa and a pot of yoghurt!) http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/Supreme_Anchor_high_standards.htm

Fortress have details on their site at http://www.fortressanchors.com/dnv.html. On past performance, I'm sure that if you asked Brian for more details he would happily provide it.

Sarca (Anchor Right) have produced several test certificates on their site too
http://www.anchorright.com.au/about-us/certification. From what I've seen of Rex he would be more than happy to provide any figures which he may have.

The corollary is, of course, that Racno promised to produce independent test results a couple or so weeks ago. Nothing. Zilch. Silence.

So, No, I haven't noticed any other manufactureres going quiet, but if you've got information to show that anyone else is making false claims it would be interesting to see it.
 
False claims

Frankly I think Rigger needs to check his pots of yogurt. If I hit a pot of yogurt with a centre punch, I lose breakfast.

If I hit a Manson Supreme shank or an Anchor Right Excel shank, not with a pot of yogurt, but with ahmmer and a centre punch - actually not much happens. I chip the galvanisnig but not much more. If I hit the fluke, same centre punch same hammer - I get a deep indent.

Now I confess I do not have a Rickety Anchor, nor Ronca (0ne with a cast fluke, one with the proud name embossed). But if I did and I hit the shank and I produced an indent - I might be worried, because I have been told that hardness, tha ability to indent. is (inversely) proportional to tensile strength. So the shank of Supreme and the Excel do not indent - so, QED - they must have high tensile strength.

Now how about those of you with embossed shank Roncas, or Rickety Anchors, get down to your boats this weekend, centre punch and hammer in hand, and tell us what you find. its non destructive.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
If you are interested, Manson recently posted the biggest selection of independent magazine tests which I have seen here;

http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/Sup_indept_test.htm

There may have been a bit of bias in the selection, but it is a lot more reliable than the dubious presentation of just a single 5 year old test by our friends.
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Manson seemed to have published the late majority of tests here and all praise to them.

I notice the Kobra 2 comes out well in 2 of the three tests it appears in (not sure of the German test my language skills are not upto it, although I notice it has 4 stars, the only other anchor achieving that is the manson). As a poster was asking for real life experiences this confirms my real world experience of it, since leaving Plymouth have used the anchor extensively in most types of sea bed conditions and it performs very well. Now in the Balearics and recently kept our boat safe while a yacht on a buoy dragged across the bay. I appreciate it is considered to be a budget anchor but the only thing lacking in this anchor is a high price.
 
Qaulity produc't, isn't a mith

Vyv


I can understand your point, but why is it that the factory has to be RINA approved, quality control is still going to be an issue, with our manufacturing my son is involved with ordering of all material, he is also directly involved with manufacturing and tool making, you know there is such a thing as pride for the product you produce, where has it all gone with rickety, introduce a marketing company to manufacture and exploit your product, end of story you will never know what you are getting.

Our manufacturing facility is nothing approved, product is produced from pride, all testing for super High Holding Power is independently carried out by Robertson’s lifting and rigging, they were authorized by the N.M.S.C (National Marine Safety Committee) you can Google them if you like, soon to be taken over by AMSA an international body, when this happens our certification will be excepted anywhere worldwide.

If you take Fortress, Manson and we Anchor Right Australia, look who is at the base of not only manufacturing but marketing, I’ll bet you can do any test you like and you will find nothing less than what is being marketed.

All of this talks about steel quality, for god sakes if you have genuine S/H/H/Power certification all one has to do is take it to an authorized anchor tester, there are many, have the anchor tested, if it doesn’t comply with the strain loads or yields under load before reaching S/H/H/Power requirements, it will also test all welded components and the end result will tell you straight away that you have a quality anchor, or a dud, simple as that, if any one in Australia would like to accompany me to an anchor test, I have one coming up soon, they can choose any anchor from the rack and we will throw in the cost of the test, I know what the end result would be regardless.

The great thing about our independent testing is this, if for any reason our anchor certification is questioned, any one from the N.M.S.C. can simply walk in, select an anchor and have it tested, nothing we can do, and that is how it should be.

Regards
Rex.
Anchor Right Australia
 
Djbangi said:
Frankly I think Rigger needs to check his pots of yogurt. If I hit a pot of yogurt with a centre punch, I lose breakfast.
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Well, I tried it as you suggested and you're right. The kitchen is covered in yogurt, the cat is covered in yogurt, I'm covered in yogurt.

That large pot certainly was not high tensile yogurt. ;);)
 
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