I hate to do this...but

end game?

Good Morning, Nostrodamus,

Its not over till the fat lady sings and I gather she is still girding her skirts, in fact rumour is, she has not even chosen which skirt to wear.

In my view the distributors ought to know about this and its them quaking in their boots. Many of them (around the world) import direct from Rocna/Holdfast and they probably fear that when the anchors start to come in they will be left holding the baby, or left holding a rapidly emptying wallet. If the volume of returns reaches the levels it ought, or could, then I would not be expecting much recompense from the Bambury's nor Smith's (but I might expect them to pop up later peddling the same products - which is another can of worms). Maybe a class action (a consortium of distributors) in NZ would be the answer. NZders seem keen on litigation and the Bambury's well experianced. Some of the distributors are taking it seriously but some of the allegations lack quantification (a bit like the threads) or might be biased and to be fair to Rocna they need to balance their actions, though they do seem to be dragging their heels. Maybe they think it will go away.

So what is a distributor to do, well stop selling would be a good idea, pull ads another. (I wonder what liability magazines have in this situation?) They only need one to fail and the distributors have the potential to be wiped out, maybe extreme, but possible. I'd be going through my records to try to pin down to whom I sold and I can at least advise them of the situation. From reading this thread many people simply do not seem to care about using an anchor not made to specification (to them its just a big joke and clean fun - but maybe that group did not actually buy Rocna's).

If you know of an importer or distributor sending them an email outlining in a few lines your understanding of the position - needs to be done fairly - would jog their minds. However the point you make about Manson is valid - Manson might be addressing this with integrity (and I am sure they are) but they might also be a beneficiaries. It would be useful if we had someone without any loyalties to the anchor industry do a test, or have an anchor maker pay, but the anchors are chosen at random by someone not in the know. Its actually in the interests odf the distributor/importer - so one would think they would do it.

Specifically the UK - based on current knowledge, I will put money on the fact that below spec Rocna anchors have arrived in the UK and that some of these have been sold and are decorating the bow rollers of yachts. If I were Boyd, I'd be more than quaking in my boots, retirement quickly looks a good option, or a big overdraft - good thing interest rates are low. But hopefully sales have been poor, at last a benefit of the GFC, and they have a big stock, though they will have paid for the stock so they will still take the hit.

As to a magazine covering this - my view is they would not touch it for fear of litigation. They publish 'technical' articles and very seldom make any other type of comment. It would make good reading and there are a few who have been covering it in detail - but publication, seems unlikely. Its actually a classic management training tool - how to destroy a good product in a few easy moves.

Enjoy the holiday.
 
When looking back through the posts (October 2009) i came across this one by Chris Robb.

"I have had a German magazine test given to me - unfortunately, in German.

This shows that a Kobra 2 and Manson Supreme came out on top with 4 stars. Interestingly the Rocna did badly with only 2 stars. A comment on the Rocna was that this was the first Chinese one tested - which is now made of a Cast Iron Fluke welded to a steel stock. Have they lost something in the design in manufacturing in China? It used to be really good, so what has happened? "

I think it now speaks for itself
 
Nostrodamus said:
When looking back through the posts (October 2009) i came across this one by Chris Robb.

"I have had a German magazine test given to me - unfortunately, in German.

This shows that a Kobra 2 and Manson Supreme came out on top with 4 stars. Interestingly the Rocna did badly with only 2 stars. A comment on the Rocna was that this was the first Chinese one tested - which is now made of a Cast Iron Fluke welded to a steel stock. Have they lost something in the design in manufacturing in China? It used to be really good, so what has happened? "

I think it now speaks for itself
Click to expand...

Anchor tests have long been known to give variable results and we've seen how Racno have dismissed everything except the, now well known, West Marine '06 tests. Even that ended up with a questionable interpretation of the figures for Racno to come up with some of their claims.

It's therefore interesting to see that Manson have updated their site to give a much wider range of tests then Racno were ever confident enough to do. It's all here http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/Sup_indept_test.htm. If you are interested in whatever hook you choose to use it makes interesting reading.


Getting back to the question of the substandard steel.........

I think that the comments in the previous posts are right. I certainly intend to write to some of the UK distributors to make sure that they are aware of these problems.
 
Well, this is interesting. As the Venice bent-Rocna was supposedly two years old, and I bought mine two years ago, I just went to check my Rocna to see if I can tell where it was made.

It has a foil sticker on the shaft which gives the model, Rocna 25, and then the word, Rocna, and the words Genuine Rocna 25kg are cast into the back, underside of the fluke.

However, for the first time, I just noticed that part of the foil sticker on the shaft has very small foil black sticker over the larger foil sticker so I decided to pick off the small sticker. This was not easy as it was well stuck and came off in tiny pieces. Guess what it says underneath the small black sticker "Made in NZ"!

I don't know why I've never noticed that second sticker before but I guess that answers my question!

Having said that, I've been happily anchored in situations similar to the Venice situation without any problems.

However, if Rocna are really aware of the Venice incident, I would welcome a comment from them as they have presumably tested this particular anchor post-incident?

Richard
 
RichardS said:
Well, this is interesting. As the Venice bent-Rocna was supposedly two years old, and I bought mine two years ago, I just went to check my Rocna to see if I can tell where it was made.

It has a foil sticker on the shaft which gives the model, Rocna 25, and then the word, Rocna, and the words Genuine Rocna 25kg are cast into the back, underside of the fluke.

However, for the first time, I just noticed that part of the foil sticker on the shaft has very small foil black sticker over the larger foil sticker so I decided to pick off the small sticker. This was not easy as it was well stuck and came off in tiny pieces. Guess what it says underneath the small black sticker "Made in NZ"!

I don't know why I've never noticed that second sticker before but I guess that answers my question!

Having said that, I've been happily anchored in situations similar to the Venice situation without any problems.

However, if Rocna are really aware of the Venice incident, I would welcome a comment from them as they have presumably tested this particular anchor post-incident?

Richard
Click to expand...

Richard, your anchor is a Chinese cast model, same vintage.
The NZ and Canada made ones do not have the logo or anything else cast into the blade.
The small sticker was placed over the 'made in NZ' part of the label because they only had those labels and used them with the wording covered up because they were chinese made.

There was no testing of the bent shank, the anchor was replaced.
Ask Rocna why not.

If you are concerned then do a simple test by hitting a nail punch with a hammer sharply on the shank, if it makes a mark then you have a choice to get it tested, if no marking then you will have nothing to worry about.

Hope this helps.
 
RichardS said:
and the words Genuine Rocna 25kg are cast into the back, underside of the fluke.
Click to expand...

This starts to get complicated....

My understanding is that casting only started when production transferred to China. If your fluke is cast, then the anchor was made in China, not NZ. (but, if it is simply your use of words and you really meant to say "stamped" then it is NZ production)

As I read it, if your Racno is NZ built then you have no need to worry. If it is Chinese then you need to be questioning it. Some are OK, some have been cheapened to improve profit margins.

With any luck Grant King will be along shortly to give the background info.

Racno have been very quiet about the Venice anchor and many other things. Until recently they were the most vocal boating company on the web, bar none. Strange that, isn't it? :(

Edit; before I even said it there's Grant. Clever thing the web! :)
 
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Rigger Mortice said:
This starts to get complicated....

My understanding is that casting only started when production transferred to China. If your fluke is cast, then the anchor was made in China, not NZ. (but, if it is simply your use of words and you really meant to say "stamped" then it is NZ production)

As I read it, if your Racno is NZ built then you have no need to worry. If it is Chinese then you need to be questioning it. Some are OK, some have been cheapened to improve profit margins.

With any luck Grant King will be along shortly to give the background info.

Racno have been very quiet about the Venice anchor and many other things. Until recently they were the most vocal boating company on the web, bar none. Strange that, isn't it? :(

Edit; before I even said it there's Grant. Clever thing the web! :)
Click to expand...

NZ and Canada models were not stamped with any name.
They only had the metal black and silver sticky label.
They also had welding across the blade joining the 2 different thicknesses of MS plate.

The chinese all have the genuine rocna and the size in kg and lbs cast into the back underside rear of the blade in raised lettering.
Very easy to identify between the origins of each just turn it upside down, look at the back of the blade and if you can see raised lettering then it is chinese.

Like I said earlier, if in doubt hit it as described earlier and see how hard it is.
 
GrantKing said:
If you are concerned then do a simple test by hitting a nail punch with a hammer sharply on the shank, if it makes a mark then you have a choice to get it tested, if no marking then you will have nothing to worry about.
Click to expand...

Interesting that you have come up with this. I have been spending quite a bit of time yesterday and today trying to devise a simple test that anyone could carry out. A DIY scleroscope is a possible, but galvanising and possible surface effects would make it unreliable, plus the differences we are looking for are not huge and it's not easy to measure the bounce of a ball-bearing.

So an indent, like a Brinell test, is probably the only good indicator but rather difficult to measure for most people. I would agree that a nail could be a guide but taking the lowest allowable YS of Bisplate 80 I wonder whether it might mark anyway?

Otherwise, having a Brinell test done by a workshop or lab shouldn't cost too much and the hardness is directly related to the strength. This would be a non-destructive test that would not harm the anchor, unlike tensile testing of course.
 
Rocna Identification

Richard,

This might be repeating Grant

But the Chinese anchors have the anchor name and description embossed, cast, into the underside of the upturn of the rear of the fluke. Its part of the fluke. If the fluke is smooth, no embossing, its NZ - otherwise it is Chinese. But do not fret, entirely. Some of the Chinese production was using up old stock of the, sorry, a higher quality shank steel and you might have got one of them. If there are any numbers on your anchor, or on your receipt - post them and someone might be able to pin your anchor down. Sadly the old stock shank material still does not meet the Rocna specs, but its better than a kick in the teeth.

I'd call the supplier, express your concerns and if you are not happy - post the problems and, again, someone might be able to help or at least sympathise.

Short term I might not use it.

Frankly I'm not an expert on anchor nomenclature (who is?), and all anchor makers seem to work to an obscure and arbitrary code. Some to weight (kg or lb), some to surface area, some to an obscure number system. Is a Rocna 25 a 25kg anchor, or does this refer to surface area? In any event, what is the weight of yours and can you provide a more precise date, of purchase.
 
GrantKing said:
NZ and Canada models were not stamped with any name.
They only had the metal black and silver sticky label.
They also had welding across the blade joining the 2 different thicknesses of MS plate.

The chinese all have the genuine rocna and the size in kg and lbs cast into the back underside rear of the blade in raised lettering.
Very easy to identify between the origins of each just turn it upside down, look at the back of the blade and if you can see raised lettering then it is chinese.
.
Click to expand...

My 55kg Rocna was delivered in June '10 after a long wait. It does not have letters cast into the fluke, and a welded seam can be seen in the blade. By date it should be Chinese. Are you sure that ALL of the Chinese Rocnas have cast flukes? Maybe the bigger sizes continued to be made out of folded plate? Or maybe the bigger sizes continued to be made in NZ for some time? Confused.
 
GrantKing said:
If you are concerned then do a simple test by hitting a nail punch with a hammer sharply on the shank, if it makes a mark then you have a choice to get it tested, if no marking then you will have nothing to worry about.
Click to expand...

Hi Grant

I tried hitting the anchor with a centre punch but it's not precise enough. The anchor makes a loud ringing sound (don't know if that's relevant) and a small indent is left but it seems to be an ident in the galvanising as, even if I hit the same spot several times, the indent does not get any worse.

But who knows - perhaps I'm not hitting it hard enough?

A better "home" test might be one where the shank is held parallel to the ground by the fluke an one end and a brick at the other and then a number of bricks or weights balanced in the middle of the shank and the downwards bending of the shank in the middle measured in mm with a ruler. I don't know if this is measuring the right parameter of the steel or even whether a reasonable number of standard housebricks would be enough to cause a measureable deformation?

As I said, I'm not actually worried as the anchor has always performed perfectly in the real world but it's an interesting subject.

Richard
 
Dockhead said:
My 55kg Rocna was delivered in June '10 after a long wait. It does not have letters cast into the fluke, and a welded seam can be seen in the blade. By date it should be Chinese. Are you sure that ALL of the Chinese Rocnas have cast flukes? Maybe the bigger sizes continued to be made out of folded plate? Or maybe the bigger sizes continued to be made in NZ for some time? Confused.
Click to expand...

The 55kg is fabricated in China as well from plate as the castings were not good enough in that size and above.
 
RichardS said:
Hi Grant

I tried hitting the anchor with a centre punch but it's not precise enough. The anchor makes a loud ringing sound (don't know if that's relevant) and a small indent is left but it seems to be an ident in the galvanising as, even if I hit the same spot several times, the indent does not get any worse.

But who knows - perhaps I'm not hitting it hard enough?

A better "home" test might be one where the shank is held parallel to the ground by the fluke an one end and a brick at the other and then a number of bricks or weights balanced in the middle of the shank and the downwards bending of the shank in the middle measured in mm with a ruler. I don't know if this is measuring the right parameter of the steel or even whether a reasonable number of standard housebricks would be enough to cause a measureable deformation?

As I said, I'm not actually worried as the anchor has always performed perfectly in the real world but it's an interesting subject.

Richard
Click to expand...

Then you have a higher tensile shank than the venice one as if it was not then you would definitely be able to see a noticable indent in the steel.
 
GrantKing said:
The 55kg is fabricated in China as well from plate as the castings were not good enough in that size and above.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Do you think that all of the Chinese Rocnas are affected by the low strength shanks? And what do you think happened? Were they screwed by their suppliers? It seems inconceivable that they could have knowingly allowed mild steel to be used for their shanks.
 
Possibly a Gerald Ratner Moment?

I read this thread with growing amazement!

First with curiosity, as I had missed the previously pulled thread, which I had ignored as I thought it was the usual tedious religious anchor war.

Then horror that I had shelled out a big chunk of money for two anchors made out of sub spec materials.

Then anger that a company may have deceived me like this when I paid a significant premium for quality of design and manufacture.

Then relief at realising that my anchors are of NZ manufacture.

Then anger on behalf of those that may still have bought a sub spec product.

Then some sadness that a mix of vicious attacks on competitors, false claims about certification, and the use of below spec materials may have destroyed a promising brand and product.

When we buy anchors we are buying peace of mind, that's why we get so worked up on the subject and unless the tests produced by Manson are credibly refuted - and quickly - I can't see future sales adding up to much.

A real Gerald Ratner moment for the brand and the company.

A great shame really because the anchor is impressive.
 
Dockhead said:
Thanks. Do you think that all of the Chinese Rocnas are affected by the low strength shanks? And what do you think happened? Were they screwed by their suppliers? It seems inconceivable that they could have knowingly allowed mild steel to be used for their shanks.
Click to expand...

I had, and still have, the highest respect for the Chinese manufacturer.

They are immensly proud of what they make and the job they do.

They make what they are told to make.
 
silver-fox said:
I read this thread with growing amazement!

First with curiosity, as I had missed the previously pulled thread, which I had ignored as I thought it was the usual tedious religious anchor war.

Then horror that I had shelled out a big chunk of money for two anchors made out of sub spec materials.

Then anger that a company may have deceived me like this when I paid a significant premium for quality of design and manufacture.

Then relief at realising that my anchors are of NZ manufacture.

Then anger on behalf of those that may still have bought a sub spec product.

Then some sadness that a mix of vicious attacks on competitors, false claims about certification, and the use of below spec materials may have destroyed a promising brand and product.

When we buy anchors we are buying peace of mind, that's why we get so worked up on the subject and unless the tests produced by Manson are credibly refuted - and quickly - I can't see future sales adding up to much.

A real Gerald Ratner moment for the brand and the company.

A great shame really because the anchor is impressive.
Click to expand...

The Manson tests, which were done in an independant and qualified test facility, will not be refuted. It is only a matter of time before other testing worldwide presents more results for discussion.

Just how far does one have to go to present fact?

Purchase receipt supplied.
Photos supplied.
Test results certified.
Silence from Rocna.

It sort of says it all doesn't it?

I fully expect another gutter personal attack in an attempt to get this thread shut down as well but that will not make it go away. A google search for the closed thread still brings up every page and can be followed, printed and read by clicking on the "cache" button.
 
GrantKing said:
I had, and still have, the highest respect for the Chinese manufacturer.

They are immensly proud of what they make and the job they do.

They make what they are told to make.
Click to expand...

Doesn't make any sense to me. How stupid would you have to be to SPECIFY inferior materials for something like an anchor? With so much at stake? And so easy to get caught? It's pretty hard to believe. I don't think we've heard the whole story yet. This has turned out to be quite a soap opera.
 
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