JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Two years and four months since the last post? You'll be lucky.
I Can’t Believe It’s Not Coppercoat!
- Thread starter BoatingBeginner
- Start date
Two years and four months since the last post? You'll be lucky.
Uno
Member
Is not epoxy one of the best waterproofing resins available, solvented, solventless or water based ? Is some one trying to say that because it may be water based that it makes it water soluble and if so in a controllable manner that they get fresh copper exposure on a seasonal basis ..
Hmmm are they sure ?
Hmmm are they sure ?
Horace
N/A
I wish I'd started at this end of the thread & realised this before,then maybe I would'nt have had to wade through nine pages of tripe to see if there was anything useful that I could take advantage of
Seems scrubbing the bottom regularly is still better than all that palava (& not to mention spending a fortune on it).Anyone know of a reasonably cheap anti-fouling paint that can be slapped on & can be reasonably expected to last throughout the summer (supposing that we have one)?
RichardS
N/A
As a former Polymer Chemist, I can confirm that if anyone is suggesting that cross-linked polymers are inevitably water soluble just because the monomer feedstock was water soluble, then they are definitely mistaken.
Richard
oldharry
Well-Known Member
A fortune awaits anyone who invents that .... Might just as well use B,&Q cheapo emulsion. It erodes about the same rate.I wish I'd started at this end of the thread & realised this before,then maybe I would'nt have had to wade through nine pages of tripe to see if there was anything useful that I could take advantage of
Seems scrubbing the bottom regularly is still better than all that palava (& not to mention spending a fortune on it).Anyone know of a reasonably cheap anti-fouling paint that can be slapped on & can be reasonably expected to last throughout the summer (supposing that we have one)?
Horace
N/A
Thanks for that tip.I shall buy some & add chilly powder (or it might be some old ASDA madras curry powder that I have got left over) + the secret ingredient that I am currently developing* & add it to the mix then wella! I shall be onto an award winning diabolical formula that barnacles would'nt dare set foot on,which incidentally might just make me a fortune
*more revealed later.
Uno
Member
Come on you lot ... where have you all got this idea that a cured epoxy resin will erode in the water ??
It may well do after hundreds of years..... as does rock !
My drinking mate (works for a epoxy resin company) told me it was rubbish and that any company claiming their epoxy resin will erode needs to be asked the question 'what is erosion rate of their resin' ? (you don't need the erosion rate of the copper).
If their claim is true they will have tested this and they will have the data because this is the whole basis of the claim on how it works.
The whole principle of their theory is this stated erosion rate. Otherwise the epoxy is a complete insulator between the copper and the water.
Epoxy resin is a very good waterproof layer (not perfect) but very good i am told.
And the fact that you can buy a water based version does not make it any less waterproof when cured correctly.
The only component that will erode is the exposed copper particles, when this has happened you will need to erode the surface yourself with sandpaper to expose more of the encapsulated copper.
If you want the resin soft you could apply it in very cold temperatures, don't add enough hardener or even add too much hardener all of these will have the same effect which is an uncured resin layer. Using an uncured epoxy under water would be crazy.
If the copper is the only part of the product that stops fouling then it needs to be re exposed to the water as needed.
The rate at which the copper erodes will of course be different from place to place and the use of the boat. which is why for some people it grows like a football pitch.
Get under there and give it a good hard sand and it may help !
I will stick with my antifouling ...rolling on a new coat each spring is way easier than getting under her and sanding the whole lot by far. If my antifoul does not work I change it for another. This costs no more than it did last year. Having said that I am just trialing a new antifoul, not because the old one didn't work (far from it) but because we can no longer buy it.... another story !
It may well do after hundreds of years..... as does rock !
My drinking mate (works for a epoxy resin company) told me it was rubbish and that any company claiming their epoxy resin will erode needs to be asked the question 'what is erosion rate of their resin' ? (you don't need the erosion rate of the copper).
If their claim is true they will have tested this and they will have the data because this is the whole basis of the claim on how it works.
The whole principle of their theory is this stated erosion rate. Otherwise the epoxy is a complete insulator between the copper and the water.
Epoxy resin is a very good waterproof layer (not perfect) but very good i am told.
And the fact that you can buy a water based version does not make it any less waterproof when cured correctly.
The only component that will erode is the exposed copper particles, when this has happened you will need to erode the surface yourself with sandpaper to expose more of the encapsulated copper.
If you want the resin soft you could apply it in very cold temperatures, don't add enough hardener or even add too much hardener all of these will have the same effect which is an uncured resin layer. Using an uncured epoxy under water would be crazy.
If the copper is the only part of the product that stops fouling then it needs to be re exposed to the water as needed.
The rate at which the copper erodes will of course be different from place to place and the use of the boat. which is why for some people it grows like a football pitch.
Get under there and give it a good hard sand and it may help !
I will stick with my antifouling ...rolling on a new coat each spring is way easier than getting under her and sanding the whole lot by far. If my antifoul does not work I change it for another. This costs no more than it did last year. Having said that I am just trialing a new antifoul, not because the old one didn't work (far from it) but because we can no longer buy it.... another story !
Sticky Stuff
Well-Known Member
If you add anything into an Epoxy resin (waterbased or not) it is only what can migrate to the surface within the wet period that could be described as possibly being exposed to the water and be active. Even then the tops of the copper particles would have some degree of epoxy resin coating them,(making them also inactive) if the mixing has be done as stated.
Anything that is not in contact with the water will not have an effect or be leach out !
Making resins that have enough control over their washing rate is a very skilled process and takes up vast amounts of both Lab and testing time for all Antifoul manafacturers.
Anything that is not in contact with the water will not have an effect or be leach out !
Making resins that have enough control over their washing rate is a very skilled process and takes up vast amounts of both Lab and testing time for all Antifoul manafacturers.
BoatingBeginner
Well-Known Member
BoatingBeginner
Well-Known Member
Helpful, but I wish I understood what you actually meant by this...
RichardS
N/A
It was a response to the suggestion that a water-based epoxy like Coppercoat will inevitably be soluble in water once the reaction to form long molecular chain polymers from the short chain monomer has taken place.
Polymers are strange things. I worked for some time with a clear liquid called vinyl acetate. This short molecular chain liquid was not soluble in water but if you polymerised it using a suitable catalyst to produce poly vinyl actetate (PVA) as a basis for paints or adhesives it became soluble in water. Coppercoat is the reverse of this, of course.
Richard
jwilson
Well-Known Member
I agree entirely, there is well documented evidence of steadily increasing antibiotic resistance, due to indiscriminate use of common cheap broad-spectrum antibiotics such as tetracycline. 50/60 years ago tetracycline was a true wonder drug, treating effectively lots of dangerous diseases including cholera. Now more and more infectious agents are resistant to it, and it now useless against many diseases. I have used several Starbrite products in the past, and am horrified that they now sell it as an antifouling additive. Yes, it probably works well in antifouling, but at the long-term cost of endangering human health.
Bacteria are winning the battle against antibiotics, even new ones. We are in real danger of heading back to the pre-antibiotics era when any minor surgery or minor injury could well kill you by sepsis.
BoatingBeginner
Well-Known Member
Ah - I see. Thanks!
I wonder if there is any way to make epoxies in any way self-eroding to reveal fresh copper...
RichardS
N/A
In fact the Coppercoat epoxy does erode slowly which is why it does eventually need replacing. Probably 15 years or so depending upon the thickness of application.
Richard
MYStargazer
Well-Known Member
Yes, it must do to expose fresh copper. But how can it erode, given that we've established - if I understand you correctly - that even water-based epoxies won't erode...?
RichardS
N/A
Water-based expoxies might erode or might not erode or might erode very slowly. It all depends upon the formulation used and what the manufacturer is trying to achieve. What I said was that water-based expoxies are not inevitably water-soluble.
Richard
If it's still within the EU you will have to take into consideration a whole series of Biocide Directives of more recent vintage.
Sticky Stuff
Well-Known Member
Epoxy resin is waterproof when cured and is not water soluble ... Water based Epoxy resin is also Waterproof when cured
The vast majority of anything you add to an epoxy resin will be coated and insulated within the cured resin layer and not exposed to the water where it could possibly work.
There could be some degree of copper particles (that are generally accepted to deter the growth of shell type fouling) near to the surface of the cured epoxy resin and a light sand may expose enough copper to have some antifouling affect until of course the copper particles erode themselves at which point more will need to be exposed if the same degree of effect is required.
If Epoxy is not soluble as suggested the surface will not wash away or erode ( everything erodes away even hard rock but not at a rate that can be useful) leaving the majority of the active part ie copper trapped within the layer.
Any claims that the epoxy resin used within these products washes away to a useful extent should be seriously questioned...
If you wanted to make a coating that washes away in water over 10 years you would not use an Epoxy resin.
What is the rate of erosion ? if they state 10 years how thick must this starting layer be ?
if 1000 microns = 1mm how many microns are needed for it to wash away in a controlled manner over the stated 10 years.
How big are the copper particles 20 microns ??
If you do have to sand it every year to expose new copper particles trapped in the layer this is no easy task !
I would sooner roller a coat of paint upside-down every year than I would sand the hull of my boat upside-down.
The devil is in the detail ask if the epoxy is water soluble or water based and ask how fast it erodes .
The vast majority of anything you add to an epoxy resin will be coated and insulated within the cured resin layer and not exposed to the water where it could possibly work.
There could be some degree of copper particles (that are generally accepted to deter the growth of shell type fouling) near to the surface of the cured epoxy resin and a light sand may expose enough copper to have some antifouling affect until of course the copper particles erode themselves at which point more will need to be exposed if the same degree of effect is required.
If Epoxy is not soluble as suggested the surface will not wash away or erode ( everything erodes away even hard rock but not at a rate that can be useful) leaving the majority of the active part ie copper trapped within the layer.
Any claims that the epoxy resin used within these products washes away to a useful extent should be seriously questioned...
If you wanted to make a coating that washes away in water over 10 years you would not use an Epoxy resin.
What is the rate of erosion ? if they state 10 years how thick must this starting layer be ?
if 1000 microns = 1mm how many microns are needed for it to wash away in a controlled manner over the stated 10 years.
How big are the copper particles 20 microns ??
If you do have to sand it every year to expose new copper particles trapped in the layer this is no easy task !
I would sooner roller a coat of paint upside-down every year than I would sand the hull of my boat upside-down.
The devil is in the detail ask if the epoxy is water soluble or water based and ask how fast it erodes .
lukedh
Well-Known Member
So if I took some cheap self-eroding anti-fouling and add my copper to it would that do the trick?
RichardS
N/A
Unfortunately your first point about no epoxy resins being water soluble is incorrect so everything that follows on from that is also incorrect. Sorry
Richard