Hunting debate.....nb

Re: Oh well, better keep this thread going . . .

Fox hunting worldwide


Highlights show where fox hunting happens

Fox hunting is often viewed as a typically traditional British activity - but hunting with hounds takes place all over the world.
Historically, wherever the British have gone building empires, they have taken the fox hunt, or a close approximation of the field sport, with them.

In many countries, including the USA, Canada and India, hunting is a living reminder of the days of the old empire.

But that is not to say, of course, that fox hunting is a British innovation. Plenty of other European countries have their own long tradition of hunting foxes with hounds.

France, Italy and Ireland, for example, have thriving fox hunts.

In many regions of France, deer, hares, and wild boar are all hunted with hounds.

The hunting lobby has significant political presence, both in the European and regional parliaments in the form of the party Chasse, Peche, Nature, Traditions (Hunting, Fishing, Nature, Traditions).


Many North American hunts chase the coyote

Opposition to hunting is also fairly organised, with groups such as the Rassemblement des Opposants de la Chasse (Assembly of the Opponents of Hunting) conducting information campaigns against hunting.

ROC representative, Nelly Bouthinot, told BBC News Online that the French hunt or trap 90 different species of mammals and birds. She compared this to Belgium, which hunts or traps 18 different species.

Hunting with hounds is practised less in France than shooting, she said, adding: "The law concerning hunting dates from 1844 and needs to be completely reviewed."

The fight against hunting in France, she said, did not include direct action.

"Hunting is a masculine occupation. Most opponents of the hunt are women, seeking a feminisation of society. Violence, for whatever reason, has no place in our struggle.

"We fight with information and by conducting opinion polls, which show that most French people, whether they lean to the left or the right, are opposed to hunting with hounds."

The USA has more than 150 fox hunts - which are regulated by the Masters of Foxhounds Association of America.

Apparel-wise, the American and British hunts are almost identical.

However, the big difference between fox hunting in the UK and the USA is that American hunters do not set out with the intention of killing their quarry.

And because of a lack of foxes, they often hunt coyote.


The MFAA Website states: "In Britain the goal is to kill the fox. Because there is no rabies in the British Isles, populations of fox are extremely high and fox are considered vermin.

"Farmers with sheep farms want the animal numbers controlled. In America this is not normally the case. A successful hunt ends when the fox is accounted for by entering a hole in the ground, called an earth.

"Once there, hounds are rewarded with praise from their huntsman. The fox gets away and is chased another day."

The MFAA's Code of Hunting Practices does not rule out killing the quarry - but does not allow digging out of an animal once it has gone to ground.

Over in Canada, where the code also applies, there are a dozen foxhound packs, which may be used to hunt foxes or coyotes.

Laurie Kingston of the Canadian branch of the International Fund for Animal Welfare, said: "There is a small fox hunt in Canada, but it is not very high profile.

"The provinces of British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia currently have annual fox hunts, but the size of the Canadian hunt is estimated to be 1/20 that of the UK fox hunt."

Because of Northern America's "more sporting" approach to hunting with hounds, there is much less organised opposition to the sport.

IFAW's Cindy Milburn said: "I have heard fox hunters in the USA boast that they haven't actually caught a fox for years.

Banned in some countries

"In the USA the animals are not dug out if they go to ground, terriers are not sent down the earths after them and the earths are not stopped up."

In areas where communism has collapsed, the perceived class issues associated with fox hunting are no longer a bar to hunting taking place.


Canada's Annapolis Valley Hunt

Russia is keen to attract overseas hunters to enjoy its vast tracts of open countryside and wildlife. However, hunting seems to generally consist of pursuing the quarry in trucks, and then shooting it.

Others countries, however, have banned hunting with hounds of live animals, branding it a "barbaric practice".

In Switzerland and Germany, where hunting with hounds is outlawed, hunt supporters have to some extent adopted drag hunting as their sport.

IFAW says that the reason fox hunting in the UK is such a burning issue internationally is that Britain is seen as a country that sets high standards for animals welfare.

Cindy Milburn said: "The fact that fox hunting with hounds is still legal exposes the UK to accusations of hypocrisy when we are involved in discussions with, for instance, the Norwegians or Japanese on whaling - or the Chinese on bear farming.

"The UK 'tolerance' of hunting with dogs is often borught up, understandably, in international negotiations on animal welfare issues."



<hr width=100% size=1>Khyber
 
Re: Oh well, better keep this thread going . . .

Well that's a first......even the Yanks are more humane than us!!

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://static.photobox.co.uk/public/images/45/99/10714599.s.jpg?ch=97&rr=16:00:39>Nirvana</A>
 
Re: Sailing & hunting - a link . . .

Another night on the Smith Corona manual portable . . .

About the hunt

The Master of the Foxhounds Association sets guidelines to ensure hunting takes place humanely and effectively to control the fox population.

MFHA Hunts are regulated by strict and detailed rules which hunt officials must obey. The standard of behaviour of followers has long been governed by an informal code. For this reason hunting's conventions, and the responsibilities of its followers are set down in this Code.

The MFHA sets out three 'golden rules' for anyone who hunts:


Foxhunting as a sport is the hunting of the fox in its wild and natural state with a pack of hounds. Nothing must be done which in any way compromises this rule.
Hunting exists entirely because of the goodwill of landholders and farmers. No-one who goes hunting should do anything that might jeopardise this goodwill. It must be remembered that for most of a day's hunting you are a guest on someone else's land.
Masters of Foxhounds, (i.e. those in charge of a hunt), or their appointed deputies, are solely responsible for the conduct of each day's hunting and are bound by the strict rules and instructions of the MFHA. Their authority is absolute and their instructions must always be willingly obeyed.

The Hunt followers also have a responsibility, they should ensure that:


They appreciate that they are guests of those on whose land they walk.
They are punctual at the 'meet', and their turnout is clean, tidy and safe. Punctuality is good manners. Special instructions may be given at the meet about the conduct of the day's hunting -thus it is important that you are there to hear them.

... as well as ensuring that:


They make every effort to avoid causing damage to land, fences or crops. However, if there is damage it must be reported to the Field Master (i.e. the hunt official in charge of the riders) or Secretary.
They do not ride or drive on mown verges, or ride several abreast through villages and along busy roads.
They do not cause obstruction when parking vehicles, horse boxes or trailers at any time.
They do not park on both sides of roads and so interrupt the flow of other traffic. Help should be afforded to passing traffic. Remember, every delayed motorist or lorry driver becomes a potential enemy of hunting.
They do not park or drive on private land without the express permission of the landholder.

In addition, hunt followers' behaviour may affect the management of the hunting day. Mounted followers will be controlled by the Field Master. Stragglers are liable to get on land where they are not welcome and interfere with the process of the hunt. Care must be taken not to impede the progress of the fox. If it should come towards you remain quiet and still until it has passed by. Then you may holloa, or signal to the huntsman with your cap or handkerchief in the air. But appreciate that he and his hounds may be hunting a different fox.

The autumn hunting season is a vital part of controlling the fox population and strict rules apply to ensure that it is only carried out for controlling foxes.

Terrier work is no part of the enjoyment of the sport and


Terrier work is no part of the enjoyment of foxhunting, but it plays an important role in fox control.
Digging may only take place with the expressed permission of the landowner or farmer. MFHA Rules state that when a fox is run to ground there shall be no digging other than for the purpose of humanely destroying the fox.
Terrier work can only be carried out by those licensed by the MFHA. The terrierman will normally be accompanied by one assistant only. Due to the possible use of a humane killer, and to avoid unnecessary noise and disturbance, participation is limited to the terrierman and his assistant with sometimes the presence of the relevant farmer or gamekeeper.

In summary...


All who follow hunting must be aware of other countryside users. People work at a wide variety of businesses in rural areas, and there are increasing recreational and leisure uses of the countryside. Other people's views must be taken into account and respected. Every effort must be made to avoid giving offence. Common courtesy, particularly in the form of a simple "please" or "thank you", costs nothing.
Every effort must be made to prevent hounds and followers from straying into places where they are not welcome, or onto roads and railways.
The wishes of all landowners, no matter how small, must be respected. Never do anything that would be detrimental to agricultural interests.
The aims of saboteurs are to disrupt hunting and provoke hunt followers. Confrontation with saboteurs should be avoided whenever possible and, in any event, followers must not retaliate whatever the provocation. Frequently saboteurs are breaking the law. You can help by recording details of vehicle registration numbers, making identifications and listing times and places of incidents. Be prepared to make written notes and report incidents to an appropriate hunt official.
Do all you can to help the hunt, be it with farming interests, passing traffic or the enjoyment of the day. Above all always obey the requests of those in charge - the Masters. Strict observance of this Code, politeness, and where appropriate, reasoned argument are what is needed to ensure hunting continues.
Finally there is only one organisation that promotes and defends all Country Sports and that is the Countryside Alliance. Everyone who wishes to continue to go hunting should be duty bound to be a member.

The content of this Code of Conduct has been examined and approved by the Commissioners of the Independent Supervisory Authority for Hunting. This code is part of a series prepared on behalf of the following Hunting Associations: The Masters of Foxhounds Association, The Masters of Minkhounds Associations, The Masters of Deerhounds Association, Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles and the Central Committee of Fell Packs.

So there . . .



<hr width=100% size=1>Khyber
 
Re: Just for the record...

Thought this article might interest you Beagle.
Incidentally, I understand there are six packs of foxhounds in The Netherlands.

The Irish horsey set are mulling the implications of the British ban on fox hunting, which has been greeted with as much anger and aggression from pro-hunters as would previously have been expected from hunt saboteurs.

Fox hunting was developed in England in the 17th century as a variation on the French tradition of stag hunting.

Now, the hunt has developed beyond a cultural tradition among the horsey set and, particularly in Ireland, part-time farming communities. It's also big business.

Already, hunters say the British ban will have a knock-on effect in Ireland.

``If the ban in Britain comes to fruition, we'll suffer the sale of horses,'' says Brian Munn, spokesman for the Irish Masterof Fox-Hounds Association (IMFHA) and member of Wexford's Island Hunt.




``An enormous amount of British hunters are bred in Ireland,'' he says.

``But that's not all. Irish hunts traditionally gather at the local pub and, on a good day, the 40 to 50 mounted followers could be followed by crowds of local people on foot or on bicycles.''

David Wilkinson, chairman of the Irish Hunting Association, agrees. ``The economic arguments for fox hunting are important for rural Ireland,'' he says. As a result, Wilkinson believes fox hunting here isn't at risk.

Enthusiasts say fox hunting contributes to the local economy through the provision of hospitality in surrounding villages, breeding, point-to-point races, equipment, feed, costumes, charity events, hiring of horses and - most lucrative of all - horse sales.

A 1998 UCD report, sponsored by Countryside Ireland, concluded that in 1995 mounted hunting contributed the equivalent of €80 million to the economy.

With inflation and economic growth, some enthusiasts now put that figure at €100 million.

``Horses that have hunted with one of the more famous hunts in Ireland are worth a lot of money if they're sold abroad,'' Munn says.

They could go for up to €4,000 apiece, but would fetch more if they went into showing and horse jumping, he says.

But there's no room for mass tourism. Most fox hunting groups have waiting lists of 20 years for new members and they don't allow more than three or four mounted guests per hunt.

However, the Irish hunt community is not bracing itself for an influx of enthusiasts across the Irish Sea when the British ban is enacted in 2006.

``I can categorically assure you that that's not going to happen,'' Munn says.

``We've a vested interest here. The idea that we'd have thousands of hunters coming from Britain is not sustainable.

"It's one thing having riders crossing farmers' land, but it'd be another thing having an influx of visitors riding over their land too.''

Some farmers complain that fox hunting damages their fences and livestock.

They say it's difficult enough to make a living as a full-time farmer with agricultural reform in Brussels and many of the younger generation moving to the city.

For their part, hunters say anti-hunting farmers are small in number. (``Two or three,'' one says.) But Philip Lynch, chairman of Farmers Against Fox Hunting and Trespass, says they now have groups in 13 counties, and 46 members in South Kilkenny alone.

``We don't want fox hunters chasing our sheep, cutting down fences, exciting our livestock,'' Lynch says.

Despite talk of British hunters following their Belgian counterparts to France, rather than Ireland, Lynch is unconvinced. ``We're fearful that they're going to bring people over from England.

"These people think that they can go whenever they like.''

Lynch says hunters make a tough job tougher for farmers. ``Let them operate a hunt and stay on their own land. We could have 60 to 80 horses going through fields. We're not the sacrificial lamb for the horse or the tourist business.''

Full-time farmers earned an average of €27,758 last year, only marginally less than the average industrial wage of €27,900, according to the Department of Agriculture.

Farm advisory group Teagasc said the figure for farmers was closer to €15,054.

But, despite Lynch's concerns and Ireland's legislative trail-blazing in areas such as smoking, most experts agree that a ban on fox hunting here is unlikely.

Other European Union countries, such as Switzerland, Germany and Belgium, have already instituted bans or restrictions on fox hunting with hounds.

But it's still legal in France, Spain, The Netherlands, Portugal and Italy.

The European Commission has not taken a clear stance on blood sports, meaning member states make their own choices. The `sports' have continued mainly where the animals in question are linked to local traditions and culture.

``In France, hunting is growing as steadily as it is here,'' Munn said. ``There was an elitist notion attached to hunting in France, but nowadays the whole community gets involved. In Ireland, hunters come from the farming community rather than the aristocracy.''

``In England, it's very elitist,'' says one female hunter, ``but here they've hardly an arse in their pants. You get hairdressers, farmers' wives, computer programmers, publicans, accountants, jockeys when you're close to the Curragh, full and part-time farmers.''

Nor is fox hunting as high-profile an animal rights issue. In the British battle to ban fox hunting, four distinct groups emerged: pro-hunting upper classes and liberal-minded middle classes on the one hand, and rural communities and urban blow-ins on the other.

Some Labour backbenchers privately admitted to voting in favour of the fox hunting ban as revenge for the 1980s miners' strike, according to the pro-hunting British Countryside Alliance.

More astute social commentators point to the ongoing, one-way exodus from the urban centres to the countryside by city folk in search of a cheaper, better quality of life.

Similar urbanisation of the Irish countryside could, over time, lead to the same weakening of the rural hunting traditions.

But, unlike Britain, Ireland lacks a pronounced class divide between landed aristocracy and two-up, two-downs.

The Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ISPCA) does, however, take a hard stance against foxes being chased for up to an hour and the practice of ``digging'' foxes out of the earth and closing underground havens.

But hunters maintain that digging is not a widespread practice and, while they acknowledge that some hunters may not be as diligent as others in repairing a fence, they insist they maintain good relationships with most farmers.

In the meantime, they say, farmers who allow hunters on their land are betting on hunts to catch the foxes that could kill their valuable livestock. But the hunts are not always as successful as those farmers would like.

<hr width=100% size=1>Khyber
 
Possible solution......

The Cherbourg (virt) trip caused some inspriration. Mind you, gentleman below still looks a bit 'girlie' although not barbaric.....

virt_hunt.jpg


<hr width=100% size=1>Never attempt to teach a pig to sing.
It is a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
 
Re: Possible solution......

Acshully in all honesty, the parallel escaped me. I spent the morning hunting for it and then the wind backed, the horse bucked, three hours leebowing paid off as we raced home in the gathering dusk.

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Re: Possible solution......

Parallel is in... never expected a virtual sailing cruise to be that jolly. Got plenty of post and the participants seemed to have enjoyed themselves.
Beats me, I think I would always opt for the real thing..... but back to hunting, I hope potential hunters didn't hear that and opt for a virtual hunt. The horse seems to enjoy him/her-selve, might be watching a totally different virtual happening????

<hr width=100% size=1>Never attempt to teach a pig to sing.
It is a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
 
Blair off the hook

I see that today in Brighton the pro-hunting lobby have let Blair off the hook by eclipsing any protest against the war in Iraq. - I hope our foxy friends appreciate this - people are dying .

Mick

<hr width=100% size=1>. . . . . . .<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.marinersboatyard.co.uk>boatyard</A>
 
Re: Thrill

Haha, and there was me thinking you were on your high horse! It turns out you were axshully on yer ass all along. ;-))

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