Howto un/step keel-stepped mast without crane ?

[lw395]

Is the boat floating or ashore?
I have been involved with doing this on keelboats, so half the size, but a wooden mast (so not light as such), and only two people needed. We build a tripod and lift the mast near its balance point.
It is quite scary when the boat rocks at all. If you wanted to scale this up, it would be pretty serious stuff.
If afloat, move to a crane/bridge/hiab lorry on tall quay at low water.
If ashore, just maybe possible with some SERIOUS scaffolding. (braced to a solid building perhaps?) In the limit, this is possible, but either scary or expensive or both.
Other than that, Chinook!
Or lower the hull down a mineshaft!
Perhaps if you explained further why a crane is not an option, we could help.
Perhaps you could find out what the weight really is, then consider things that are not quite cranes, e.g. cherry picker, manitou, agri fork lift, fire engine?
As a really off the wall thought, is it one piece or sleeve jointed? Do you see where this is heading? Don't go there without talking to a rig man!

 

[doug748]

I have a compass derrick, and it handles the relatively small mast ( 9m deck stepped) on my Dehler easily, but even so its not what I would call a painless exercise, probably as I don't lower the mast much (did it 3 weeks ago)

It may be too obvious a suggestion, but why not contact a few riggers for advice. Its not a job I'd want to do for the first time without at least some well experienced person on hand. Once you've seen it done and helped its so much easier to contemplate the job on other occasions.

Tim

Perhaps you could dig out the specification and give Boo some sort of idea if would be suitable for his mast?
Vertical lift / spreader height is the critical one I would say.

 

[West Coast]

Got to admit, I am with Quandary on this one.

My club hires a crane to lift boats into and out of the water each year - a well organised and safe operation, and masts are lifted out before hand using two boats with larger masts, one on either side. However for the mast being removed, max boat size is about 32', no keel stepped that I know of. The boats that lift the mast of the 32' boat mast are generally 35'+. For me, that is as heavy as I would want to do by this "manual" method, and I would not want to be part of a team doing this for a 32'+ boat with a deck or keel stepped mast.

My own boat is 35', deck stepped - I cannot imagine taking it down without a crane or similar.

 

[Quandary]

Got to admit, I am with Quandary on this one.

My club hires a crane to lift boats into and out of the water each year - a well organised and safe operation, and masts are lifted out before hand using two boats with larger masts, one on either side. However for the mast being removed, max boat size is about 32', no keel stepped that I know of. The boats that lift the mast of the 32' boat mast are generally 35'+. For me, that is as heavy as I would want to do by this "manual" method, and I would not want to be part of a team doing this for a 32'+ boat with a deck or keel stepped mast.

My own boat is 35', deck stepped - I cannot imagine taking it down without a crane or similar.

Thank you, some one with experience, I was beginning to think I was joining the Health and Safety Police.

 

[Leighb]

A comment re equipment, our local yard does not use a crane. They use a JCB with a long extension arm in place of the bucket, and step/unstep masts of yachts up to around 33-35'.

They do occasionally borrow the crane from the neighbouring yard for very tall keel stepped masts where they would not get sufficient height.

My point, it does not HAVE to be a crane. Hope this may help?

 

[fishermantwo]

The difference with cranes versus the derrick method is height of the lifting point. Derricks need only be a few feet above the pivot point, plus the height between the cabin top and the keel if keel mounted.

Some people might want to check the weight of their masts. They might be awkward but not as heavy as some people think. 200 kg mast must be on a large yacht.

 

[30boat]

I'm also with Quandary here.The problem with a keel stepped mast is that it has to remain perfectly vertical when being withdrawn from the cabin.Any small deviation and there's big trouble.A crane is the safe way of obtaining a straight pull.I had a boat with a tall keel stepped mast before and know that it's much more delicate to unstep such a mast than a deck stepped one.

 

[Strathglass]

This is a photo of me stepping the mast for the very first time.

The mast is 48' (15 metres) long and the deck is about 4 metres from the ground. This required the lifting point to be at least 8 metres above the deck. I had thought about making a larger copy of the Compass thing but the potential for a disaster held me back a little.
I also looked into hiring one of those skylift buckets but by the time I paid for delivery etc it was not cost effective.

Had it been a deck stepped mast there would have been no problem. I have stepped the mast on my E boat by myself when it was on the water.

The problem is getting the mast exactly vertical after it is through the deck hole to match the step inside the hull.

By using a crane I was able to do the job relatively easily and in a controlled manner.
This was partricurally important as I had to cut to length and make up the lower ends of all the 8mm standing rigging (Petersen Hi-mod) once the mast was in position while it was suported by the running rigging.

I did have the crane already on hire to lift the yacht from the low loader so it was (just) the arangement of the logistics to do both tasks at the same time.

I now have to climb up to the top of the mast to replace the NASA wind cups before I launch for this season but that is another story.

Iain

 

[davidej]

It is noticeable on a lot of threads that the originator never reappears to answer the many questions or comment on the suggestions give by helpful members.

Wonder why we all bother?

 

[Quandary]

David
I believe Boo is a beginner who is contemplating buying his first boat with the eventual aim of doing a world girdling single handed passage in it. He has sought advice before and caution has been urged but he seems very determined. He has a limited budget and has asked various questions about potential problems in the boats he has been considering, I presume this is one of these. My caution is influenced by this and his possible lack of experience.
I would still advise anyone against handling big deck stepped masts without a very controllable crane or a travel hoist jib.

 

[davidej]

Quandary

I expect you are right but I think our drive to reply to time-wasting questions is more about feeding some internal pyschological need.

This is not intended to be against you or any of the other posters - just an analysis of my own soul - very apt for Good Friday!

 

[Malish]

The prime question that the OP should be asking himself is: "if I go for a home-constructed option, how am I going to justify this route if it goes wrong during the lift and someone is unfortunately hurt" (or as I often say when putting pragmatic H&S systems in place... could I look the coroner in the eye and say that there was nothing I could have done to prevent the accident to Fred Blogs, it was unforseen.....)

 

[Quandary]

Quandary

I expect you are right but I think our drive to reply to time-wasting questions is more about feeding some internal pyschological need.

This is not intended to be against you or any of the other posters - just an analysis of my own soul - very apt for Good Friday!

Perhaps its just the modern substitute for conversation?
I read the forum for years without any urge to post, since I started interfering I have done it more and more, but you are now making me question my motivation.

 

[doug748]

The method suggested by Sighmoon & Earlybird is just fine. In the the Merchant Navy (when we had one) this was known as a Union Purchase, albeit rigged from derricks.

Simple, safe & easily controlled procedure which has worked well for many many years.

I can see that Maxi.
The problem with short yard cranes is that the pull is not directly where it should be (as Strathglass has pointed out), the upper sheave knocks your masthead gear off, the hook scrapes your mast and the wires then impart grease over the lot. You then get the thing angled in the deck and have to resort to brutish tactics.
A telescopic truck mouted job is the ideal and you can hoist using a halyard from the masthead. However, in this case, you solution seems just the job.
Just a thought, if the boat (ashore) were alongside a house, wall or building you would be halfway there.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

From the OP question: -

Is there a way to un/step a keel stepped mast on a 35 foot sloop without the use of a crane ? (Note : please take this as a given, not a debating point - I would surely use a crane if I could, I'm not completely daft.)

The OP is asking for assistance on a specific point. Of course a crane would be better but the OP has stated that its not an option. One can assume the boat can not be moved to where a crane is required based on the posting.

To Quandary: Yes, we use trained operators, with certified equipment.

iw395 states it clearly

Perhaps if you explained further why a crane is not an option, we could help.

 

[DownWest]

My method: Arrange derrick off back of pick-up made of two 6mt. square tubes. Hinged at tailgate with adjustable brace forward, for reach ( 1 hrs work).Park at edge of commercial fishing dock which has the height needed from water. Boat was a ketch with 50ft main in wood. Winched the masts off the deck and lowered them in. Two workers and two tea ladies. The only error was to practice on the mizzen, by which time the tide had come in enough that we were short of height for the main. A long lunch sorted that out. Though the dock had cranes, the hassle to get permission would have taken days.Plus they had never done it before. Total cost: Nil, as I had all the tube etc to hand.
I had to lift the main back up a bit as he had forgotten the coin.. At no time were we worried or at risk. Also where we were doing it had not heard of elf & s. nor was there any insurance to consider.
Andrew

 

[Grajan]

The problem isnt lifting it, well it is, but it can be done. the major problem is CONTROLLING the mast as it comes up through the deck especially if afloat, as that length of lever could/can cause major structural damage and you are only looking at minimal movement at the lifting point for the base of the mast to swing out and do horrendous damage to the yacht let alone damage that could be done to the person(s) guiding / guying the mast
I professionally stepped masts for many years in yachts up to30+ft manually, and it was terrifing, fortunately we had cut our teeth on smaller craft and were well aware of the pitfalls and never experienced a mishap, well nothing bad enough that we had to "confess" to an owner!
I dare say that under dire circumstances you might consider taking the risk but in my book, without the experience, a very foolhardy move.

 

[Boo2]

I don't think Boo has bought a boat yet, so this may be a theoretical exercise.

Correct, I am still investigating the theory of buying a boat

Fwiw, the replies I've received here are dissuading me from contemplating using anything other than a crane to unstep the mast from a boat. This will lead to further theoretical enquiries in due course...

Boo2

 

[Boo2]

I believe Boo is a beginner who is contemplating buying his first boat with the eventual aim of doing a world girdling single handed passage in it.

The firm plan is to do a round trip of the UK, hopefully starting next April and continuing until Sept that year. I guess most sailing boats parked in UK marinas would be OK (ish) for this trip.

"World girdling" is not part of my decided plan, but I would like to retrace a journey I made when I was very young and travel from Holland to Thailand via suez. The boat I am looking for will do both these trips because I can't afford to buy and fit up 2 boats. This is the main restriction on what boat I buy just because it is a more demanding journey.

He has sought advice before and caution has been urged but he seems very determined. He has a limited budget and has asked various questions about potential problems in the boats he has been considering, I presume this is one of these.

Yep - actually the potential problem relates to a possible mooring I am considering this time, not the boat itself.

My caution is influenced by this and his possible lack of experience.
I would still advise anyone against handling big deck stepped masts without a very controllable crane or a travel hoist jib.

Determination is necessary but caution is good, too

I will most likely never unstep a keel stepped mast without a crane and operator, I was just checking what the limits are.

Boo2

 

[davidej]

Some might class this as time wasting .. but then

we are not complled to read or reply!