How to set fire to your boat...

[andyball]

Re: What do you mean \"...

missed the getting away with it post....but what sort of battery bank do designers use for the modern inverters that can draw up to 200 Amps for as long as the battery lasts, & much more for short periods.

Don't use deep cycle batteries then.....but cranking batt's don't care for deep cycling, do they?.

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[Aeolus_IV]

Re: What do you mean \"...

The simpest solution if (like me) you don't like to have to remember when to switch your batteries "off/1/both/2" and don't want one of these VSRs, is to install a split charging diode. Also take the time and effort to install a intelligent alternator regulator to over come the fact that the diodes will lose about 0.7v across them. This does have three benefits to my mind:

You can never run the engine without the batteries connected.
There is no risk of charge transfering between banks.
You get better battery management out of your primary charging mechanism - your engine.

The down side is that the diodes and regulator are not cheap, but I'm hopeful that the money spent will be repayed by having better managed batteries which last longer and are better charged.

There are several very good books on the subject of marine electronics, some specifically only deal with 12v. It is well worth the time and money digging these out and having a good read before starting your project.

Regards, Jeff.

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[steve_cronin]

ACR SLIPRINGS

Actually, it's the central brush that digs a hole in the slip ring unit. When we showed this to a Bosch representative back in the 70s he just laughed at the total ineptitude of the "designer" at Joe Lucas's Birmingham comedy Theatre who dreamed it up. As I'm sure you know, in their early alternator designs they ran their brushes on the sides of drum sliprings and this arrangement is universal today.

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[steve_cronin]

Ah well,

If you're fitting a properly engineered unit from the drawing board of Charles Sterling you can at least be sure of your alternator's efforts being put to proper use.

In all this sorry episode I wish I'd stuck to the product I know as a genuine "Intelligent" charge controller, never allowing myself to be sold the old tech Adverc and the dangerous VSR that the LIBS salesperson so adamantly informed me was the vastly superior splitting system that the firm concerned (which I have not named yet you will note) had supplied to several ambulance authorities in the north. This sales speel (which I found dubious at the time but accepted with the promise of a refund it proved not to be so) was completely contradicted by the manufacturer of the Adverc who as well as admitting that his unit was simple old technology, recounted a story about how HE had been called in by "a northern ambulance service" to REMOVE all the VSRs they'd been supplied with from another source due to unacceptable performance.

On the Sterling website, Charles Sterling describes VSRs as dangerous and, as a direct substitution for a proper quality diode block, so do I.

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[steve_cronin]

Charles Sterling

If an authority like the very talented Charles Sterling says something is rubbish and HE sells on the US market where the YBSA regs are vastly more stringent ( was THAT TOO vitriolic for you? Ohh, sorry!) than CE, that is good enough for me. but that was not the only evidence, Adverc also condemned VSRs without prompting from me.

As to two alternators, YES, so long as each has intelligent control, that is the ultimate solution.

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by kimhollamby on 09/02/2004 08:57 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[steve_cronin]

Re: Steve - not sure that

The NZ sourced one I was sold (but not yet fitted as the boat is in Greece) only works one way and has no connections to the ignition switch. It simply parallels the two battery banks after the voltage in the starter battery recovers to 13.4 or thereabouts. In the climate we operate in the engine usually starts on the first revolution of the crankshaft so this closing would occur very quickly so that any load put upon the depleted domestic battery must flow down the charging cables for which they are grossly under-rated.

Changing Bavaria's wiring of my Tigres windlass to run off the 80Ah starter battery might not be a good idea since the windlass is running for a good few minutes every morning and I don't think it would be long before effectively deep cycling it would cause it to fail. Then there is the effect on the alternator wiring of course.

The real answer is three batteries and three alternators but your relay sounds as if it has been designed for marine use. That which I have been sold appears to be for road vehicles - and even the claimed afficionados of these have apparently deserted the cause!

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: What do you mean "...

<<<but what sort of battery bank do designers use for the modern inverters that can draw up to 200 Amps>>>

The point is that invertors do not care about voltage drop and also any reasonable one will maintain its full voltage (or close enough to it for most purposes) right down until the battery supplying it is nearly flat. The DC drives on windlasses do care about the voltage (generally they are modified automotive cranking motors) and running under low voltage conditions is likely to, and does, kill them.

As the voltage drops, of course the current has to go up to produce the same power, so some protection against low voltage abuse (and of course against other overloads) can be had by having a breaker in the circuit sized with only a comfort margin over the normal current draw so that it throws.

The advice to run the engine while hoisting is not to protect the battery, as many assume, it is to protect the windlasses drive from the low voltage problem. One finds no such advice associated with running an invertor, they do not need that protection.

John

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[halcyon]

Re: Steve - not sure that

A battery in the bow will not be that bad, if you run the winch for say two minutes at 150 amp, it would be a nominal 5 amp/hour, or 6% of battery capacity. If you fit a relay, and use the existing cable you will get a good charge with little volt drop to the bow battery, and should therefore get a good charge. The limiting charge factor will be the service battery, this load will limit the alternator output voltge ( till it reaches it's regulation voltage ), so in all probability if you are charging your service battery ok, you will be charging the bow also. So if you are charging to say 80%, using the winch in the morning will only drop the bow battery to around 74%, thus you are not deeply discharging. Also it would be a very simple mod, at a low cost. As a added point, you will not be loading your service battery when they are already low first thing in the morning, so improving battery live to a degree.

Brian

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[andyball]

Re: What do you mean \"...

Thankyou John, I see what you mean.



I see that sonneschein dryfit claim an internal resistance of between 0.002-0.005 ohms <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mhpower.com.au/Batteries/Solablk.html>here</A>, although the supplier doesn't mention what current this is measured at.....doubtless it inreases at higher currents.

What is a typical internal resistance of starter vs deep cycle batteries at a high load? (say,100Amps from a 50AH battery)

Just trying to get an idea whether or not a large enough battery bank of deep-cycles would be ok for starter/winch/bowthruster use.

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[EdEssery]

Re: Ah well,

If I summarise this enitre thread, I think it boils down to:

Steve's initial intention was to go with split charging diodes and a Sterling intelligent charge controller to overcome the voltage drop they impose. At LIBS he was "sold" a VSR but upon reflection and further research he concluded that it wasn't the optimum solution for him because of the impact of a large power drain from an anchor windlass against a fully charged starter battery and service battery in a sem-charged state. He therefore changed his mind to his original way of thinking and is somewhat unhappy with the treatment he has received from the sellers of the VSR when he came to return it.

On the topic of VSRs, I think the conclusion is that they are OK *IF* wired correctly which means, using appropriate size cables, having a fuse in the circuit and adopting best practice of having a separate battery for the Windlass and/or Bow Thruster, or failing that, connect them to the starter battery because, by their nature, they impose a cranking type load on the battery banks.

By implication if you have an older and/or less well equipped boat with no Windlass or Bow Thruster you don't have the problem with VSRs anyway.

In another thread there is a discussion on the topic of A/B/Both switches which concludes they are bad news from a human factor perspective - it's a pain to having to keep changing them and/or people forget. But they are the cheapest solution.

Next cheapest is a VSR and it definitely removes the A/B/Both pain. Most expensive of the three is the combined Splitter Diodes and Intelligent Charge controller.

As with everything in life, it's horses for courses and you get what you pay for - you just need to know your requirements.

Me? I've got a mid '80s MG Contessa 27 which was mainly used for racing before I bought her. Because of this the second battery was removed and the A/B/Both switch disconnected. I've had her for two seasons with that single battery and an engine that takes 30 seconds plus to crank from cold. Although this has given me no problems, I am going to put back the second battery. When I do, I'm going to install a VSR of the very brand we've been discussing.

Anybody want an old, unused A/B/Both switch...
... or got a VSR for sale? ;-)

Ed

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[rex]

Re: Ah well,

That seems to have summed this huge thread up pretty well. I think that it is best to do your research first then buy what you think you need rather than be "sold" something then research the subject. If you need to change your mind expect to pay for the suppliers willingness to accept returns. I think we all get it wrong and think of better ways later but it is always our own decision how we do a job, that is the attraction of running a boat isn't it?

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[steve_cronin]

You don\'t think then....

that these people have a duty of care? What is Charles Sterling's opinion worth? Or that a decent, reasonable company would exchange unwanted, unopened and definately unsuitable goods for goods of a greater sales value without quibble and CERTAINLY not charge a handling fee?

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[steve_cronin]

Seriously, do yourself a favour..

Just ring Sterling Marine and ask for Charles Sterling or ring Adverc. They will both put you in the picture on VSRs
AND - don't confuse "intelligent" controllers with "smart" controllers.

If you havn't a heavy load like a thruster, a power windlass or an inverter you might get away with the VSR but it is interesting to note that Adverc, the "old tech" product's installation instructions caution against using a VSR with their product and offer a drastic wiring modification in an attempt to safeguard against the contacts fusing.

Just advice from someone who has gone into the question very throughly through the whole thing and has spotted a real danger ( that he originally suspected but was vehemently quashed by the salesperson to such an adamant degree that you would need to believe that they knew what they were talking about). needed to equip in one hit over a very busy weekend and asked advice and guidance from a well known and established company who's boss is actually a contributor to this very magazine as an expert on marine electronics! For some of the stuff they sell they're the only importer for so you're stuffed if you get into a bad relationship with them.

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by kimhollamby on 09/02/2004 09:05 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[MainlySteam]

Re: What do you mean \"...

<<<What is a typical internal resistance of starter vs deep cycle batteries at a high load?>>>

I do not know Andy, but it is significantly different for deep cycle batteries according to whether the surface charge on the plates has been used or not. Just as an anecdotal case in our own instance, we have 4 x 130Ahr (C20) Trojan wet cell batteries paralleled and 40 amps from the freezer drive pulls them down quite significantly (I have not really noted it, but I think from, say, 12.6 v if charged to around 11.5 v with the drop being significantly higher if already partly discharged). Again, because a dc motor is involved, although a far larger framed one than a windlass's drive, we tend to get the freezer down while the engine is running so that the motor current is lessened - typically we drive the batteries to the end of the 14 v charger step, at which time the alternator drops from about 20% of the 520Ahr installed battery capacity (ie 100 amp) charge rate, and then run the freezer as the batteries finally top up).

When the batteries have just come off full charge it is noticable that the voltage drops under normal continous house loads (which includes a thermoelectric refrigerator) quite quickly (relatively speaking) while the surface charge comes off and then the rate of voltage drop decreases as the batteries discharge from inside the plates.

In 8 years we have only ever cranked the engine twice using the house batteries, once was a whoopsee during the trials after launching and the other was in the case of a failed cranking battery. In both cases they were fully charged and cranked it, as would be expected, in a "lively" manner, but that is, of course, a load of very short duration.

Obviously the more batteries in parallel the less the voltage drop on a heavy load such as a windlass or invertor so is probably not such an issue for the windlass with a converted cranking motor on it, purely from the point of plate area/internal resistance, if one has multiple batteries but the matter of their charge state at the time of the loading is, I believe, still an issue even if the alternator is running unless it has plenty of surplus capacity over a, say, 20% charge rate (which would be unusual).

John

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[halcyon]

Re: Seriously, do yourself a favour..

Steve will you not keep 'taring all firms with the same brush', ok you have had problems with one firm fine. we have been designing and manufacturing relay controlled charging systems for 25 years, suppling mainly boat builders. The problem you had was reconnised back in 1983, and all units have been designed to avoid it. Blocking diodes have been a problem for years due to volt drop, in fact it is 30 years now since we took out a Patent on a charging system to avoid this problem, they also suffer failures that would give you an identical situation as you have described.

This forum is my time of work, it's nice to read and discuss things that do not relate to boat electronic systems, but if they crop up and I can, I will over advise. But this one just keeps going round on myths, could be's, and generalisations.

Time to sign off

Brian

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[kimhollamby]

Addendum

It will not escape your notice that this section of the thread has been edited to remove all personal comment but retain the exchange of views of this subject.

Steve/PVB -- Please stay the right side of the forum rules regarding abuse of forum users; if you have any issues with posts made here send a PM or mail to me.

Steve, I take it from this thread that you have a disagreement with Merlin over advice given and, by inference, believe James Hortop's involvement with contributing to the Ask The Experts section of Practical Boat Owner to have given such advice greater gravitas than might have otherwise been the case? If that's an accurate summary and you have ongoing concerns of this nature please email sarah_norbury@ipcmedia.com with any relevant comment.

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[Chris_Robb]

Re: Steve - not sure that

Steve - the answer may be to uprate your engine battery, - but you will probably have a problem fitting it in the existing box!. I would have thought this much easier than fitting an additional battery in the bow.

The other point - that one can overcharge one set of batteries on a long trip, I do not think is correct. The charge effectively goes into the battery needing the charge. I have never even had the slightest hint of the engine battery going over voltage on a long trip.

Good luck with sorting it all out.

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[James_Hortop]

Steve,

I am horrified to read your posts here and I think it's time to put some things straight.

1. Split Charging

May I suggest you fully read our split charging guide - available at this link:

http://www.merlinequipment.com/prod_area.cfm?area_id=39&ind_id=1

This is an independent look at split charging systems. We sell EVERY type and recommend the best for each person's individual needs. It just so happens that VSRs are best for most boats.

Again, we sell alternator charge controllers so can give you an independent view on these.

Very simply the main benefit of fitting an alternator controller is to overcome the voltage drop introduced by blocking diodes. The other benefit is to overcome the internal resistance of lead/acid batteries. If you remove the voltage drop (by using a VSR or Pathmaker) and internal resistance within the battery (by using AGM batteries - assuming that cable sizing is correct). You simply do not need an alternator controller. No wonder Adverc and Sterling don't like them.

Modern vehicles now have alternators controlled by the engine management system. You cannot add alternator controllers to them. The ONLY way to enhance charging is to use AGM batteries and VSR units.

You cannot "set fire" to your boat with a properly installed VSR - Fact. They would be illegal if this was the case. Take for instance, the case you highlight:

Flat domestic battery, full engine start battery. Windlass running from domestic.

Start engine, VSR closes to allow power through to domestic battery. Windlass switched on. Domestic battery unable to provide power since its flat. Heavy current starts to flow across the VSR unit. In under 1 second, system voltage will collapse. VSR immediately opens - protecting itself and your wiring. FACT.

This is the answer to Mick's question (4 or 5 threads in) pasted below:

Having had this type of equipment fitted last season, I have been following your posts with interest, (but not from a knowledgeable position.) Could you please clear up one small point : ie If my alternator is only capable of producing say 55 amps, how can it suddenly start producing these dangerous 200 amp currents when the demand from the windlass comes on? No doubt there is a simple reason that I have failed to grasp.

ANSWER: It can't, it would try to pull it from the engine battery but the voltage would collapse (almost immediately) before this could happen.

Now, if you are considering a standard split charging relay (activated from the D+ of the alternator), the above isn't true and you are in real danger of melting down the split charge relay and associated cabling - BECUASE IT IS NOT VOLTAGE SENSITIVE.

2. Service Issues

I have NEVER spoken with you about your system or wishes to return product to my company. Please do not use my name when you are unsure about the real facts. A personal attack on me is not called for, not fair and is slanderous.

With regards to restocking charges, It costs us a percentage to bill your card, 5% to refund it, £10 to raise and invoice and £10 to raise a credit. We make a 15% restocking charge to help cover this if goods are returned. Product also has to be fully tested/repacked before it goes back into stock. Why should our other customers pay for these charges (through higher pricing) just because Steve Cronin changed his mind? Under most circumstances we waive the 15% restocking fee (especially if the customer has mis-ordered or in circumstances other than just changing ones mind). I understand that big retail companies don't always charge restocking fees (which is probably what you are used to) - we aren't B&Q, Woolworths or the like and certainly don't make the same size margins!

Almost 60% of our engineering department's time is spent on the telephone talking to customers about technical issues, answering their questions and providing free of charge guidance. Most people find this very helpful and in many cases invaluable. Something we don't charge for. I think this illustrates that we try to be as fair as possible.

With regards to technical information and who is right and wrong, we employ only qualified engineers. We operate within extremely sensitive areas including front line emergency vehicles, ministry of defence, aerospace and telecomm markets - we do not have the space to make mistakes when specifying or recommending equipment. Its interesting that we don't see our other Marine competition in these other market places.....

If you have a problem on your boat, the RNLI lifeboat that picks you up, the ambulance that takes you to hospital and the outside broadcast crew who report your mishap on TV all had their electrical systems designed by myself or another senior company engineer. I think its fairly obvious that we know what we are doing.

While we all welcome reasoned and resonable comment, I would urge you to be extremely careful writing sladerous posts.

3. PBO

I write for PBO and various other magazines. It is a standing order with all of these that no promotion of products that I sell is acceptable. This is a matter of personal integrity and one that I take extremely seriously.

I receive a huge amount of praise and support from readers who enjoy these articles.

FYI - every article I write is checked for being technically correct by myself, a second electrical engineer and then by an independent engineer. What's printed isn't heresay or guesses - its technically correct and based on fact (and 50 years of combined engineer's experience).

4. Your comments

I (and many of my contempories) are horrifed by comments often read within the pages of YBW. Someone (soon) will be killed by dangerous electrical practices recommended by people who think they understand electrical systems. There is a movement within the marine industry to make DIY electrical work illegal on safety grounds (DIY 230V work in some other european countries is already illegal). Personally I am against such moves but when reading posts such as yours, I wonder whether this judgement is correct.

James Hortop








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[James_Hortop]

Re: Reasonable question

Steve,

I am horrified to read your posts here and I think it's time to put some things straight.

1. Split Charging

May I suggest you fully read our split charging guide - available at this link:

http://www.merlinequipment.com/prod_area.cfm?area_id=39&ind_id=1

This is an independent look at split charging systems. We sell EVERY type and recommend the best for each person's individual needs. It just so happens that VSRs are best for most boats.

Again, we sell alternator charge controllers so can give you an independent view on these.

Very simply the main benefit of fitting an alternator controller is to overcome the voltage drop introduced by blocking diodes. The other benefit is to overcome the internal resistance of lead/acid batteries. If you remove the voltage drop (by using a VSR or Pathmaker) and internal resistance within the battery (by using AGM batteries - assuming that cable sizing is correct). You simply do not need an alternator controller. No wonder Adverc and Sterling don't like them.

Modern vehicles now have alternators controlled by the engine management system. You cannot add alternator controllers to them. The ONLY way to enhance charging is to use AGM batteries and VSR units.

You cannot "set fire" to your boat with a properly installed VSR - Fact. They would be illegal if this was the case. Take for instance, the case you highlight:

Flat domestic battery, full engine start battery. Windlass running from domestic.

Start engine, VSR closes to allow power through to domestic battery. Windlass switched on. Domestic battery unable to provide power since its flat. Heavy current starts to flow across the VSR unit. In under 1 second, system voltage will collapse. VSR immediately opens - protecting itself and your wiring. FACT.

This is the answer to Mick's question (4 or 5 threads in) pasted below:

Having had this type of equipment fitted last season, I have been following your posts with interest, (but not from a knowledgeable position.) Could you please clear up one small point : ie If my alternator is only capable of producing say 55 amps, how can it suddenly start producing these dangerous 200 amp currents when the demand from the windlass comes on? No doubt there is a simple reason that I have failed to grasp.

ANSWER: It can't, it would try to pull it from the engine battery but the voltage would collapse (almost immediately) before this could happen.

Now, if you are considering a standard split charging relay (activated from the D+ of the alternator), the above isn't true and you are in real danger of melting down the split charge relay and associated cabling - BECUASE IT IS NOT VOLTAGE SENSITIVE.

2. Service Issues

I have NEVER spoken with you about your system or wishes to return product to my company. Please do not use my name when you are unsure about the real facts. A personal attack on me is not called for, not fair and is slanderous.

With regards to restocking charges, It costs us a percentage to bill your card, 5% to refund it, £10 to raise and invoice and £10 to raise a credit. We make a 15% restocking charge to help cover this if goods are returned. Product also has to be fully tested/repacked before it goes back into stock. Why should our other customers pay for these charges (through higher pricing) just because Steve Cronin changed his mind? Under most circumstances we waive the 15% restocking fee (especially if the customer has mis-ordered or in circumstances other than just changing ones mind). I understand that big retail companies don't always charge restocking fees (which is probably what you are used to) - we aren't B&Q, Woolworths or the like and certainly don't make the same size margins!

Almost 60% of our engineering department's time is spent on the telephone talking to customers about technical issues, answering their questions and providing free of charge guidance. Most people find this very helpful and in many cases invaluable. Something we don't charge for. I think this illustrates that we try to be as fair as possible.

With regards to technical information and who is right and wrong, we employ only qualified engineers. We operate within extremely sensitive areas including front line emergency vehicles, ministry of defence, aerospace and telecomm markets - we do not have the space to make mistakes when specifying or recommending equipment. Its interesting that we don't see our other Marine competition in these other market places.....

If you have a problem on your boat, the RNLI lifeboat that picks you up, the ambulance that takes you to hospital and the outside broadcast crew who report your mishap on TV all had their electrical systems designed by myself or another senior company engineer. I think its fairly obvious that we know what we are doing.

While we all welcome reasoned and resonable comment, I would urge you to be extremely careful writing sladerous posts.

3. PBO

I write for PBO and various other magazines. It is a standing order with all of these that no promotion of products that I sell is acceptable. This is a matter of personal integrity and one that I take extremely seriously.

I receive a huge amount of praise and support from readers who enjoy these articles.

FYI - every article I write is checked for being technically correct by myself, a second electrical engineer and then by an independent engineer. What's printed isn't heresay or guesses - its technically correct and based on fact (and 50 years of combined engineer's experience).

4. Your comments

I (and many of my contempories) are horrifed by comments often read within the pages of YBW. Someone (soon) will be killed by dangerous electrical practices recommended by people who think they understand electrical systems. There is a movement within the marine industry to make DIY electrical work illegal on safety grounds (DIY 230V work in some other european countries is already illegal). Personally I am against such moves but when reading posts such as yours, I wonder whether this judgement is correct.

James Hortop



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[steve_cronin]

You have chosen to go public on this matter....

I have taken great pains NOT to mention you or your company by name. However since YOU have now I consider it out in the open. I will deal with your points in the same numeric order. You have posted twice and they seem to be similar so I'll respond just the once if I may.

1. Your "Split Charging Guide" being badged on every page with the name of your company, could hardly be described as "independent". Your advert for the NZ VSR claims "Fitted in Minutes" I would suggest that this is only true when the existing wiring is of sufficient c/s diameter to take a heavy current even if only for a short time. Splitting diodes don't warrant such cabling and therefore builders don't tend to fit it on the offchance that someone might replace the unit with a VSR.This ad. implies direct replacement of the existing diodes is satisfactory which I think is misleading.

You lump Adverc and Sterling together but anyone who has examined the characteristics of each will know that the Adverc is simply a timed pulse controller but the Sterling is a fully managed system based on battery sensing not relying on the standard alternator controller made for car use which will go into float once the float voltage is achieved, only increasing it's output as demand increases - like switching on the wipers or heater blower. It takes a very long time to reach full capacity with a standard controller even without the resistance of a diode in circuit as I'm sure you know. Another downer for relay-only based systems.

Your salesperson at the LIBS led me to believe that the Adverc was an "intelligent" controller whereas I discovered later, by telephoning Adverc's owner that it was nothing more than a sequenced pulse charger which would drop to float voltage long before full battery capacity was achieved. The Dolphin mains charger I bought from you and which I consider to be a very well engineered product (& so did Charles Sterling when I spoke to him) does manage to achieve full battery capacity. This is particularly important to me as I'm sure you are also well aware since my boat is used in Greece where the windlass is essential for use each morning as is the constant drain of a refridgerator, not to mention the large inverter I also purchased from you.

I would also contest your point:-

"Very simply the main benefit of fitting an alternator controller is to overcome the voltage drop introduced by blocking diodes. " I would suggest that most people's main reason is to utilise their batteries' greatest capacity potential within the shortest practicable time taking into account component and battery longevity and that this can only be achieved by a properly managed charging cycle which it can't get from either a standard controller, wether through a relay or not, nor from the type of fixed timed set up available from the product you sell from Adverc.

It worries me that you make so many references to vehicles where the demands are different. However it is relevant in one particular case.

AS to my stated scenario, is it not a well known phenomenon that in the situation you describe, these VSRs will cycle repeatedly and turn into a buzzer as they switch in and out rapidly not knowing wether or not to make or break and wasn't this the reason that VSRs fitted to one ambulance authority's vehicles had to be removed? "Heavy current starts to flow across the VSR unit. In under 1 second, system voltage will collapse. VSR immediately opens - protecting itself and your wiring. FACT" - YES fact but what does it immediately do afterwards and continue to do? In the case with the windlass, it will do this every morning so I have to ask, what figures do you have on the number of cycles these things can take before their contacts burn away or the internal switching packs up?

Your comments addressed to "Mick" are certainly valid and I cannot understand why you chose to address them in a reply to me. Unless it was to demonstrate that there ar many misconceptions with regard to current draw out there and maybe to attempt to slur me at the same time as being ignorant of the subject. I can assure you that this is not the case. Both 12vdc and mains wiring involvement have been a feature of my life over the last 30+ years having wired, modified and managed four boats over that time and completely wired my own house, business premises, a motor workshop and three other properties in that time and had to make no remedial alterations on subsequent inspection.

2. Service.

You and I have certainly never spoken on the subject of products or returns but as I'm sure you are aware, when one employs staff, their utterances are YOUR utterances.

I have also certainly never written your name nor slandered you.. Please show me where if I am mistaken.

The salesperson who sold the original goods to me at the LIBS when telephoned initially about my concerns was pleased to confirm that "because the customer is always right, I could return the goods(at that time particularly the VSR) for refund. You didn't have to pay any postage on the initial purchase as I picked it up from your stand at the LIBS. I thought it fair to a relatively small company as you imply you are that rather than accept a straight refund, I purchase an additional item from you in some sort of gesture of compensation. I therefore ordered a remote control panel for the Dolphin mains charger (the delivery of which, incidentally, I still await) This cost of this item as you are aware, exceeds that of the VSR.

When a few days later and having taken counsel of both Adverc and Sterling again, it became apparent that the Adverc was not suitable for my purpose for the reasons above already stated. This was in the early morning of thursday last when I rang again and spoke to another salesperson because the previous one was on another call (this was well evident as I clearly recognised the characteristic voice in the background - but that is an irrelevance) After stating my intention of returning the Adverc, I was given an RMA number and the still sealed, unopened and certainly unused goods will, I hope, be with you shortly.

However, again so as to appear to deal with you reasonably, and not put you at loss, I ordered another item, an AC Source Selector model 8032 so as to install the 1800watt Purewatts inverter I had also collected from you at the show, in a safe manner aboard our boat when I go out to Greece next week.

I was not in my office on friday as I was preparing for a charity event but was appauled to receive the message that one of your staff had telephoned to say that I would be charged this 15%.

Now the saying goes "Exchange is no robbery" but in the case of your company this doesn't seem to apply even when the balance of exchange is tipped well in your favour. I still even need further supplies from you, for example as there doesn't appear to be a controller with the two large Solar Panels I also bought from you (although I havn't opened the boxes even though the Dolphin remote panel was supposed to be shipped with them).

You have your views on split charging and myself and others have theirs and probably "never the twain shall meet" but when I get conflicting information from two other sources, pardon me from not wanting to retain an alternator controller who's output falls off too soon or a relay that might cut in and out too rapidly to be of any good to me or itself (and a lot of northern ambulances evidently!)

3.PBO

I am sure that your writings in PBO are worthy and as one who has had an article published by IPC in another marine title (albiet a good few years ago now) I would not wish to criticise or cast doubts on your integrity. You mentioned taking advantage of this position though, not me. For that therefore, I accept your assertions and I hope that you were not claiming that I was implying that there has ever been even the tiniest footnote of the form " All items mentioned in this article are available from Merlin Marine". Such a thought is preposterous and I would not expect anything like it.

4. As to the laws in Holland making it illegal to even put a replacement plug on a flex, yes I am aware of them but surely this is taking the nanny state too far. On the other hand though I always found the french over dependance on the RCCB as a 100% reliable (contacts making & breaking again you see) life saving device very alarming but the criticism is more aimed at the maintenance than the installation. As to your implying that my proposed installation is dangerous or inept I must ask you on what basis do you come to this conclusion?

In conclusion, I would point out that had I been treated reasonably and full information been disclosed to me then there would be no reason whatever for me (or you for that matter) to waste so much time on this affair. Considering what I have spent with you over the month of January and February so far and that I also now wish to purchase at least one other item from you as indicated above, I feel that I was not afforded the consideration that a good customer might expect.

Incidentally, as to the galvanic isolator I also bought from you, can you please explain why it is that the recommended test does not give the readings quoted by the enclosed leaflet. Instead if unity I get 1540 in one direction and 1454 in the other (both on diode setting on a Draper multimeter) Also can you confirm that the CE marking refers to EN ISO 13297 as nowhere on the product is this referred to. The high levels of conductivity over an extended period afforded by this standard being very important to personal safety when arriving at a boat where long periods of non-use a marina will be common.

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion