How to leave pontoon berth - specific conditions

[mattonthesea]

I have lots of experience in mooring and leaving pontoons but I have not been able to find a successful method under certain conditions.

The boat is a 32 ft long keel and skeg. She has a high bow which catches the wind. Prop wash to starboard is quite strong. Only two of us on board.

Suppose the boat is facing north into a finger pontoon port side to. The berth to starboard is occupied by a boat of similar or larger size. The finger is shorter than us. The exit is to the west. We have to finish pointing west. There is not enough room to turn in this wind and reversing this long keel is an arcane art.

The wind is from the SW F5-6.

The problem is that, until enough way, the wind will blow us on to the other boat. We cannot get enough way because the prop wash will take the stern to the same result. While we could use the lines to balance her, this only works for part of the length. After that it would be a challenge of perfect timing to slip the lines and power the engine. Not perfectly executed and we drag the bow down their side.

What we have done in the past: fended/fendered off around the other boat. (This is only practicable really with a mobo with a dive platform. Yachts tend to be bigger than us and have lots of stuff to catch on.) Once around we can then spring off.

We have also run a line to the windward side of the channel to pull the bow around. This is not easy to set up and runs the risk of line around the prop as we power up to get some way on.

And on one occasion the marina rib acted as a bow thruster.

My YMO assessment, although tricky, was a doddle compared to this.

I know that this is not a problem most of you will be familiar with but is there something I'm missing? Something a wise sage can enlighten me ?.

M

 

[doug748]

Have I got this correct, your prop kick is to Starboard in reverse?

 

[Jokani]

Why does the bow have to point west, can't you continue to reverse, stern to the west and more into the wind rather than fight it?

 

[Aeolus]

In my 1970s 30' boat, which does not steer in reverse, I would try one of two options:
1) Standing on the pontoon, I would release all lines (keeping one last line in hand) and push the boat out by hand, directing the stern towards southeast, jump aboard at the last moment and hopefully have given the boat enough momentum that it will clear the pontoon and permit me to steer the boat forward to the west. I would have the rudder centered while pushing it. If there was a crew member, I'd have them put the engine in reverse at minimum revs as I started pushing. As the wind would start pushing the stern while you are still holding the bow, it might help. However there is a risk, if the wind is strong, that it will push you onto the boat next door before you're clear enough to start motoring forward.
2) Exit the berth and face the wrong way. Put on some revs and start moving forward, fairly close to the starboard side of the channel. Put the rudder hard over to port and alternately engage forward and reverse with fairly high revs. The boat should swing round pretty much within its own length. As long as you work the engine, the boat should overcome the wind.

 

[RJJ]

A couple of ideas.

Just go and sit on your fenders against the other boat. Then you may have space to spring in your bow to starboard and get your stern well over to port, giving you room to accommodate your propwash, assuming there's a few feet between your boats when moored.

Or how about a midships slip line? This can be a great way to reduce your turning radius and/or manage the rate of turn and/or hold you off objects to leeward. Could be from your port side to the offside of your finger, or even to a yacht the far side of it. This would pull your stern to port, as gently or as hard as you wish.

I should confess I have little experience on one of these long keel thingies. Is it that it's hard to steer astern until you have some way on? In which case the above solution may help. Or basically impossible to exit your channel astern i.e. turning the bows to the W is mandatory? In which case I am not sure I can think of the answer.

 

[westernman]

Why does the bow have to point west, can't you continue to reverse, stern to the west and more into the wind rather than fight it?

Reverse in a long keeler

No problem. But it will decide where it wants to go not you. And unless the wind is strong, where it wants to go is totally random. When the wind is strong, it is the wind direction which decides.

 

[westernman]

If I understand it you need to reverse out and turn left with the wind pushing you in the other direction.

I would take a stern line on the starboard side and loop it through something. May be a cleat on the next pontoon to the other side of the boat parked next to you on the starboard side (you would almost certainly need to get on that boat to pass the line across unless you can throw the line to the pontoon without get it tangled around the rigging of your neighbour). I would place plently of fenders around both sides of the bow.

You can use that line to steer pull the stern in the right direction as you back out.

I would back out smartly, letting the out line as needed. I would back out as far as possible, put the rudder hard over and then a substantial burst to get some forward way on and some prop wash over the rudder to get you headed off in the right direction. This needs to be done quickly and is not a method for the faint hearted. You have to hope you get enough stearage quick enough to avoid getting blown back on to your neighbours on the port side.

Probably the best strategy is to call out the marina rib to act as a bow thruster. Maneuvering a long keeler backwards in a F6 is not easy. (Unless you want to go backwards directly into the wind - that is a doddle).

A long keeled yacht a few berths down from me parked bow to say pointing S with the wind from the NE, would reverse out to almost the other side of the fairway, then then full power and full rudder. He would get close very close to the yachts on the same side as his berth before getting enough way on. He would do this very quickly, with almost full power the whole time.

I was asked to move a few berths away from him as he was getting close to my bow sprint on some occasions.

This was a professional who used to go out three times per day during the season (and had been doing this for many years). So I presume he knew what he was doing and this was his best option.

I used to berth stern to. No problem leaving, but of course difficult to park. There was a post on my starboard side. I would reverse up to that and put a bow line looped around that. When reversing back I would keep that line tight and every time the bow blew off too far, I would then go forward to pull the bow back up into the wind with a strong burst of power with the rudder set to adjust the position of the stern in the berth.

This would work up to F6. More than that I would park some where else.

 

[IanCC]

I have lots of experience in mooring and leaving pontoons but I have not been able to find a successful method under certain conditions.

The boat is a 32 ft long keel and skeg. She has a high bow which catches the wind. Prop wash to starboard is quite strong. Only two of us on board.

Suppose the boat is facing north into a finger pontoon port side to. The berth to starboard is occupied by a boat of similar or larger size. The finger is shorter than us. The exit is to the west. We have to finish pointing west. There is not enough room to turn in this wind and reversing this long keel is an arcane art.

The wind is from the SW F5-6.

The problem is that, until enough way, the wind will blow us on to the other boat. We cannot get enough way because the prop wash will take the stern to the same result. While we could use the lines to balance her, this only works for part of the length. After that it would be a challenge of perfect timing to slip the lines and power the engine. Not perfectly executed and we drag the bow down their side.

What we have done in the past: fended/fendered off around the other boat. (This is only practicable really with a mobo with a dive platform. Yachts tend to be bigger than us and have lots of stuff to catch on.) Once around we can then spring off.

We have also run a line to the windward side of the channel to pull the bow around. This is not easy to set up and runs the risk of line around the prop as we power up to get some way on.

And on one occasion the marina rib acted as a bow thruster.

My YMO assessment, although tricky, was a doddle compared to this.

I know that this is not a problem most of you will be familiar with but is there something I'm missing? Something a wise sage can enlighten me ?.

M

There are, imo, combinations you can't fight. You won't be able to prop walk your bow through the f5/6. I have a thruster on mine and in the conditions you describe i would stay put. I am no old salt, yet in the yacht club to which i belong considered opinion seems to be in agreement with me. And the others don't have long keelers. There is a rustler 31 which seems to behave very well in reverse but it might be down to the management.

 

[awol]

If you kick to starboard in reverse ask for a starboard-to berth - easier to park and get out of. You brought the problem on yourself by starting with a port-to berth. Or change to a Yanmar which kicks left!

 

[IanCC]

If you kick to starboard in reverse ask for a starboard-to berth - easier to park and get out of. You brought the problem on yourself by starting with a port-to berth. Or change to a Yanmar which kicks left!

But in the situation described even if it kicks left and you go around clockwise it will still be nigh on impossible to get the bow through the wind.
Morgans cloud makes for interesting reading on this. If i have understood it correctly they would aim to reverse by lining the boat up in forward gear then reversing without trying to steer until the boat goes off course at which point forward again to align again. Would require a lot of practice me thinks.

 

[roaringgirl]

We also have a long keel and skeg - very difficult to steer in reverse. If the prop walk is stern to stbd and you can't get the boat moving very quickly, you are going to contact the boat to your starboard side. If the wind is blowing from SW, you shouldn't need any fenders on the port side, so get them all on the starboard side, including one right on the bow, so it won't damage your neighbour.

I would reverse as hard as I can put of the berth holding the rudder straight. If I get the speed up enough, I might be able to knock it into neutral and steer to counter the propwalk. Once the bow is clear of the berth, you can figure out whether you are able to spin around with 'back and fill', or if not, your only option is to reverse down the fairway. When we end up having to reverse down the fairway, I use the following tricks:
1) get up speed, then knock it into neutral so I can steer without the propwalk
2) when the stern is too far off course, give it a good burst of forwards and use the rudder to direct the propwash to steer the stern
3) when in reverse and trying to steer, keep a firm hold on the wheel/tiller and don't use more than 20° rudder, as it just acts like a brake.

 

[PlankWalker]

I think you need a swinging mooring.

 

[Supertramp]

Similar configuration (long keel) with no astern steering. Previous posts sum it up well. There are occasions, much as you describe, when I do not try to leave. Especially if you add some tide flow, although this can help if against the wind. Using gentle bursts forward and astern work best for me but will not turn the boat in stronger winds. Prolonged higher revs builds up a lot of momentum which easily turns into movement in the wrong direction.

The midships cleat works for me by letting the boat leave at an angle and start to pivot as you engage astern and slip the rope. Sometimes holding the boat, engaging astern and then slipping means there is some flow over the rudder and a trace of steerage. Roaring Girl describes it well. Get it wrong and you are adrift broadside on down a dead end, and probably have to do the reverse/adjust process while trying not to get blown to the leeward side (not easy when truly random things happen in reverse).

As you say, dead easy in a fin/single rudder boat. I think practice would improve my performance. In the old days, you would warp your way out using a line to the opposite pontoon and competent bystanders but not easy without shoreside help.

 

[oilybilge]

As a long-keeler who visits a marina about once a year this thread terrifies me

 

[Supertramp]

As a long-keeler who visits a marina about once a year this thread terrifies me

The upside is that a long keel boat is a joy to anchor. And sail!

 

[IanCC]

Similar configuration (long keel) with no astern steering. Previous posts sum it up well. There are occasions, much as you describe, when I do not try to leave. Especially if you add some tide flow, although this can help if against the wind. Using gentle bursts forward and astern work best for me but will not turn the boat in stronger winds. Prolonged higher revs builds up a lot of momentum which easily turns into movement in the wrong direction.

The midships cleat works for me by letting the boat leave at an angle and start to pivot as you engage astern and slip the rope. Sometimes holding the boat, engaging astern and then slipping means there is some flow over the rudder and a trace of steerage. Roaring Girl describes it well. Get it wrong and you are adrift broadside on down a dead end, and probably have to do the reverse/adjust process while trying not to get blown to the leeward side (not easy when truly random things happen in reverse).

As you say, dead easy in a fin/single rudder boat. I think practice would improve my performance. In the old days, you would warp your way out using a line to the opposite pontoon and competent bystanders but not easy without shoreside help.

But will you get blown to the leeward side? I don't have enough practise but in reverse, i have always read, the stern seeks the wind. In the situation described it will also depend what boat is on the other side of the finger. A big boat could give you a lot of shelter. Maybe sufficient to go for it. If i go for it my stern just goes sideways.

 

[westernman]

If you kick to starboard in reverse ask for a starboard-to berth - easier to park and get out of. You brought the problem on yourself by starting with a port-to berth. Or change to a Yanmar which kicks left!

With my Yanmar you get to choose which way it kicks. You pick a left or right hand propellor - or with some feathering props you can change them in the water. The gearbox has no preferred direction.

Just remember to adjust the morse control. It overloads the brain trying to deal with it when it is the wrong way around. Been there, done that. Got it fixed pretty damn quick.

 

[mattonthesea]

Thanks for the ideas. When we visit a marina we usually ask for a head to wind, stbd side to berth - but not always available. It's when we are somewhere with no HM and we spot an available berth that we get in this situation. Or maybe the wind is unexpected. Bizarrely, or maybe sensibly, we like Baltic box moorings as we can use the poles to pivot around.

The stbd stern line works in lighter winds but with these strengths the bow tends to take over.

Sometimes, marinas are too tight to execute a spin/pivot fore and aft turn at lower speeds and I'm not sure if I want to do a high speed manoeuvre in that tight a space ?. So upwind we have to face.

The same goes for reversing across the channel. At the slow point of going into forward the bow is caught by the wind.

I should perhaps have said that we anchor as much as possible. We generally go into marinas for specific reasons, including shelter. Remember the end of July 2021 when Scilly took a bashing? Portland kindly took us in - but into this exact situation; and they helped us out.

 

[johnalison]

The only safe way, as I see it, would be to take a line from the other side of the alley and have the crew keep the tension on as you back out. The line could either be retrieved by someone on the other side, or released and thrown back to you, or perhaps even a double line used for self-retrieval.

I am still uncertain as to whether the prop walk is to starboard when ahead or astern but apologies if I have missed it. If astern and without a shore line, you could back out sharply and use the speed to give you enough angular momentum to get the bow pointing a little into the wind before going ahead promptly. If the walk is when ahead, then the only option without a line is to back out very hard before engaging neutral as soon as you are going fast enough and if you are lucky the prop wash will help get you in the right direction when you power ahead, but neither of these is guaranteed to work and you have to be prepared to escape by settling across the stern of your neighbour before sorting things out as best you can.

 

[Supertramp]

But will you get blown to the leeward side? I don't have enough practise but in reverse, i have always read, the stern seeks the wind. In the situation described it will also depend what boat is on the other side of the finger. A big boat could give you a lot of shelter. Maybe sufficient to go for it. If i go for it my stern just goes sideways.

I know exactly what you mean, and the uncertainty of how the boat will respond is what makes it so hard. For me, the wind will blow the bow off before the stern, but emerging from the pontoon can mean the stern catches the wind first and starts the boat turning. A bit of angular momentum and by the time I'm near the opposite side its usually pointing the right way ready to drive out forwards.

Its hard to visualise another's boat and pontoon. If SW is your prevailing wind, then consider asking for a S facing berth so you more often dock into the wind and emerge with the wind.