How to install gas & hob in a small sailing boat

mikefleetwood said:
...when we got an LPG qualified engineer to commission the system, he had to change all the fittings as the olives were the wrong metal. Apparantly LPG reacts with the alloy in brass.
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I don't believe that! If that were the case, don't you think it would be mentioned in the BSS regulations? I think you were conned.
 
Rberrow1 said:
I have a ruffian 23 which im slowly doing up and kitting out, have no way to cook at the moment. I know if i am to use propane and a small hob i need to be careful as gas can build up inside the boat
1) isit worth putting in a gas system, would a camping stove be easier?
2) what do i need to install a simple but safe gas system?
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My choice without doubt is a gas ( 2 burners and a grill) stove and a fixed gas installation running off a gas bottle in a locker in one of the cockpit lockers.
( A grill is high on my list of priorities )
Installed as near as possible to comply with the Boat safety scheme Chapter 7

The BSS may be mandatory only for canals and rivers but its the only comprehensive guide to what makes a safe system.

I have not managed to dot all the eyes and cross all the tees in a small boat but jolly nearly.
Lack of space forced me to fit a ( cheap) camping stove without flame failure on all burners so an gas alarm is on the list to be fitted.
I've not got the locker drain properly overboard yet but an extra cockpit drain exiting above the water line will sort that out.

I use Camping Gaz ( butane) . Its expensive but I don't use a budget busting quantity. I don't go boating in very cold weather so I don't need propane

You will find the BSS Chapter 7 here http://www.marinesurveys.net/BoatSafety/Guideline-chap7LPG.pdf
There have been a few minor amendments to that which you should be able to find on the BSS website.
 
mikefleetwood said:
Not all gas engineers are certificated to work with LPG. There are subtle, but important differences! A few years ago, we built a new sports/social pavilion and contracted a local CORGI registered plumber to install the LPG boilers - when we got an LPG qualified engineer to commission the system, he had to change all the fittings as the olives were the wrong metal. Apparantly LPG reacts with the alloy in brass.
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pvb said:
I don't believe that! If that were the case, don't you think it would be mentioned in the BSS regulations? I think you were conned.
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Calor recommend ( stipulate) copper olives for LPG installations.

I do not recollect seeing the reason why. I have always assumed it's because they are softer.
 
dankilb said:
Funnily enough, recently had a chat with a relative who’s a British Gas engineer and asked him if he could check my new install on the boat and he said he didn’t have the right tester, would have to get one off a mate. Dunno any more than that. But would all domestic gas installers have kit/knowledge to test LPG?
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Most gas fitters do not have the additional certification for LPG due to the cost. Even fewer have certification for marine LPG. That is three certificates at I believe in excess of £1000 each annually hence the reason there are not that many marine LPG fitters around outside of popular boaty areas.. Google will find your nearest though there are a some in Scotland that Google doesn t list so could be the same down south.
 
Sandy said:
What are your plans with the boat? Day sails or multiple day passages?

I'm not a fan of a Trangia Stove in a pitching sea due to its liquid fuel even on a gimbal as you still need to fill it.

I spent an enjoyable passage on a big ocean going racing dinghy last summer and between the excitement of a F9, 20 knots SOG and surfing a wave for about half a mile we used a JetBoil. Basic but provided hot food and drink when needed.
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I plan on doing a round ireland in it next summer, the german origo seems my best bet its nice have 2 rings too
 
Bilgediver said:
Most gas fitters do not have the additional certification for LPG due to the cost. Even fewer have certification for marine LPG. That is three certificates at I believe in excess of £1000 each annually hence the reason there are not that many marine LPG fitters around outside of popular boaty areas.. Google will find your nearest though there are a some in Scotland that Google doesn t list so could be the same down south.
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Best place to find a qualified gas fitter is the gas safe register where you can use filters about lpg and boats. Also allows you to make sure that they are still legal, etc.
 
As to fitters, pretty much impossible to find.

I changed and fitted mine than involvement a reasonable amount of pipe work and adapters.

Liberal use of suds at all the joints is a good start.

I suspect (as I did) you will persuade many approved to gas fitters to check over your work, albeit he might want to bill his services in cash or a sail! Doubtless an installation might be offered on the same basis if required.
 
Bilgediver said:
Most gas fitters do not have the additional certification for LPG due to the cost. Even fewer have certification for marine LPG. That is three certificates at I believe in excess of £1000 each annually hence the reason there are not that many marine LPG fitters around outside of popular boaty areas.. Google will find your nearest though there are a some in Scotland that Google doesn t list so could be the same down south.
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Makes sense, especially as LPG is so comparatively rare in the UK (versus countries which regularly use it for domestic cooking, water heating, etc.).

He seemed genuinely unsure about what you needed (leak testers etc.) for LPG - whereas the mate he mentioned apparently does static caravans! I'm just planning to fit my own bubble tester anyway.

As for the OP's question, I'm with those suggesting alcohol or 'portable'-type cookers. Doesn't seem worth the hassle for a full LPG install, as simple (and safe) as those can be of course.
 
dankilb said:
Makes sense, especially as LPG is so comparatively rare in the UK (versus countries which regularly use it for domestic cooking, water heating, etc.).

He seemed genuinely unsure about what you needed (leak testers etc.) for LPG - whereas the mate he mentioned apparently does static caravans! I'm just planning to fit my own bubble tester anyway.

As for the OP's question, I'm with those suggesting alcohol or 'portable'-type cookers. Doesn't seem worth the hassle for a full LPG install, as simple (and safe) as those can be of course.
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I came up against these problems years ago and as I mainly do day or overnight sailing I switched to an Origo and got a license to burn alcohol. I couldnt stand the smell of meths. You can now get the spirit in B&Q etc. Been fine for about 8 years now.
 
just get a good camping stove and only change canisters outside.
The vendee globe boats go round the world using jet boil stoves as do the mini transatlantic boats.

There is an awful lot of guff about gas on boats.
 
Interestingly the RCD sets standards for gas instalation on all boats sold or put into service. I believe the RCD is incorporated in UK law. So, from around 2000 there have been standards for gas instalation which boats must comply with. Whether that covers new work on boats sold prior to 2000 I don't know.
It might even specify an iso which requires copper olives on copper pipes. :)
 
Lucy52 said:
Interestingly the RCD sets standards for gas instalation on all boats sold or put into service. I believe the RCD is incorporated in UK law. So, from around 2000 there have been standards for gas instalation which boats must comply with. Whether that covers new work on boats sold prior to 2000 I don't know.
It might even specify an iso which requires copper olives on copper pipes. :)
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Yes and the insures would expect compliance on the boats built to RCD compliance but I think that boats which were never RCD may escape some of this. Some surveyors I have discussed this matter with over the years seem to take guidance from the BSS and RCD as well as various standard industry rules and the matter of the copper olives is basic gas engineering. The one thing about the rules which a few feel can be handled better is fitting possibly several bulkhead fittings in say the run to the cooker from the gas locker. Every bulkhead fitting introduces two compression joints which may be hidden in lockers and each a possible source for leaks. What a few people have done is to drill the bulkhead fitting to a clear bore for the pipe od and then slide the pipe right through in one continuous length and once in place tighten up all the nuts and olives to effect a bulkhead seal.

The problem with many elderly boats is using a gas locker below the cockpit seat and still being able to get the required drain out from the bottom of the locker to the outside at least 3" above the static water level. Even mounting a bottle on the Taff rail can be a problem if there is a hatch or porthole to an aft cabin in the area.
 
The ISO 10239:2014 (Small craft – Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) systems) requires the gas pipe to be run with "as few fittings as practical" between the cylinder and appliance" and "joints and fittings to be readily accessible. Sect 6.2.6
 
Lucy52 said:
The ISO 10239:2014 (Small craft – Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) systems) requires the gas pipe to be run with "as few fittings as practical" between the cylinder and appliance" and "joints and fittings to be readily accessible. Sect 6.2.6
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Interesting. Does that apply to a boat last made about 40 years ago?
 
It is referenced by the RCD, and as I have said above would apply to boats after 2000 but I don't know how much it would affect new work on boats built before that.
You might need to be able to show that you have exercised due diligence and adhered to best practice when carrying out work which could effect boat safety, either as an owner or tradesman.
By way of trade I think you would be a fool not to comply, but at another level noboby might ever know until it all went wrong.
 
The sort of gas pipe used for boats is bendy. It is simple to bore out bulkhead fittings and assemble without actual joints in the pipe, even though fittings are used. If there are actual joints then the pipe runs need to be well supported or they risk leaking after time.

I'm not aware of any regulation about olive composition, still less about the fittings themselves, but in the small sizes used on boats we only had copper olives, mind you it is over thirty forty (!) years since I worked with gas.
 
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