How to finance liveaboard

[sveinutne]

Hi
I am new to this forum, so I would like to introduce myself. I am 56 years old, and I live in Norway. It will take at least six more years before I can live of a pension, but I would like to start a new type of life before that. I hate the cold climate in Norway, so I would like to go somewhere warm, but I also need to finance my new lifestyle, so I will need to find some sort of income too.
I have many ideas and some are not very realistic, so I thought I would share some of them with this forum to hear what others think of it. Then maybe I can scratch more of the list as not doable.
I have a small sailboat here in Norway. It is and an Ericson 41, an old American classic made in California. It is nice to sail for one or two persons, but now I have been looking at motor yachts of 24 meters in length. You can buy them at low price in Greece and Turkey, now some at less than €200K.
The big drawback with this boats are the high fuel consumption, but if you move very little and only at low speed, the fuel cost might not be too bad. The dream was to use it as charter boat, and move around in the Med at summer and down to the Canary Islands at winter, but that might not be so easy with all the regulation and licenses needed in each country. So I need to look at my options. I got a boat certificate in Norway that is good for boats until 24 meters in length and 12 passenger and crew.
1. Register the yacht as private and just pay for everything myself.
2. Register the boat as commercial, but if it is difficult to meet the entire requirement for charter, just use it as a floating hotel or BB.
3. Like 2, but move it one or two time per week to new locations.
4. I read on a web page about "6-pack" and unsurvey boats, but that was maybe in US.
5. Meet all requirements for charter in one country and stick to that country.
6. Charter in several countries'.
So you see I have many ideas, but what is realistic or best to do is the big question.
Any comments that might help me in this proses is very welcome.
Regards
Svein

 

[GrahamM376]

Welcome Svein. Most of the liveaboards we know who work to support themselves do so by either internet business or, working on boats in one way or another. Chartering is competitive and to do it properly is expensive to equip, qualify personally and meet the regulations in different countries if you move around. Some people charter illegally (I've met a couple) but that's a very risky business with the possibility of heavy fines and no insurance cover for boat or passengers if insurers find out. A friend has a coded 44 ft motor boat but work is intermittent and, at 50 euro per hour for diesel, he doesn't move very often. Maybe you have some personal skills which could be used to earn a crust?

 

[Sybarite]

Welcome Svein. Most of the liveaboards we know who work to support themselves do so by either internet business or, working on boats in one way or another. Chartering is competitive and to do it properly is expensive to equip, qualify personally and meet the regulations in different countries if you move around. Some people charter illegally (I've met a couple) but that's a very risky business with the possibility of heavy fines and no insurance cover for boat or passengers if insurers find out. A friend has a coded 44 ft motor boat but work is intermittent and, at 50 euro per hour for diesel, he doesn't move very often. Maybe you have some personal skills which could be used to earn a crust?

Another problem may be VAT where the local authorities frown on fly-by-night operations competing with local boats which are subject to the restrictions.

 

[Tranona]

Forget about chartering. You have identified the major problem which is getting licences to operate in each country. Even sticking to one country you need typically 10-12 weeks chartering a season to break even which is just about impossible to get for a new entrant, or even for existing boats. Finding the customers and providing them with the level of service to justify the fees is hard work. Most charters are arranged through agents who have lots of boats on their books but will clearly favour existing clients rather than new ones unless there is something unique on offer. Many of the boats offered for charter are privately owned boats where the owners are happy to do a week or 2 each year to help defray some of their costs. This means there is potentially surplus supply, again making it difficult to get into the market.

The big market for crewed charters is in the western Med where costs are significantly higher and inevitably competition greater. Eastern Med is more bareboat and flotilla, mostly sail and dominated by big operators who have the marketing operations to attract clients.

Sorry if it sounds negative, but few people have managed to do what you suggest. Most liveaboards live on savings, pensions, have the kind of jobs that they can do from the boat or work part of the year elsewhere to finance their on board lifestyle.

 

[sveinutne]

Hi Tranona,
Thank you a lot. It is this type of expertise I am looking fore, to find what can be done, and what I want to do.
My dream was to sail between the Iceland in Greece and Turkey during the summer, and sail down to Hurugada during the winter and sail divers in the Read Sea. Now with the conflicts in Egypt that is not something I would try in the present situation. So if you thing prices are better in western med, I see Spain as an option. If Mallorca, Ibiza in the summer and the Canary Iclands during the winter. It is all Spain, but in the charter business this might be seen as two different operations? Also the cost of moving the boat between this places might be expensive.

 

[Tony Cross]

Hi sveinutne and welcome!

In Greece (where we're based) you'll have real problems with your chartering idea. In Greece at least a vessel that is registered as a commercial vessel (as it must be for chartering) cannot be used for personal pleasure. That means I think that each time you use it on your own or without clients aboard you are technically in breach of the regulations here. Similarly a vessel that is registered as private cannot be used for chartering.

 

[sveinutne]

Hi sveinutne and welcome!

In Greece (where we're based) you'll have real problems with your chartering idea. In Greece at least a vessel that is registered as a commercial vessel (as it must be for chartering) cannot be used for personal pleasure. That means I think that each time you use it on your own or without clients aboard you are technically in breach of the regulations here. Similarly a vessel that is registered as private cannot be used for chartering.

Hi Tony and thank you for the info.
I could change tactics and not run charter. Then I could start a company in Spain that is renting office in the boat, and most if the work will be done over the Internet. If this is a one man company I guess things will be simple, but if I hire one or two people that is living on the boat working in the company, then what?
Also do I need to start two companies one in Spain, and an other in the Canary Island (ZEC)?
So much to find out....

 

[Sandyman]

You talk of wanting to escape the rat race & the cold so I don't understand why at your age you are considering spending 200k
on a plastic motor-boat to earn an income. If you've got that kind of money then go spend & enjoy.

 

[sveinutne]

Hi Sandyman
With 200K you can live nice for some years, but then what?
Also you can buy a 200K yacht with much less money if you got some security.
I do not mind working hard, I love it and I love the sea and warm weather. It is the cold in Norway I am trying to escape.
At the moment I am just looking at my options, and get a bit frustrated with all the regulations, but I hope I will find something I can live with in a year or two.
If Charter business requires very expensive investment, I need to see if I can do something different.
I understand the safety is very important, and I am all for safety, but if the boat is anchored in a sheltered place, the safety requirement might be different and the guests do not need to be onboard during movements between places.
So I will see what I find.

 

[sveinutne]

So maybe I have found the way.
I can work from my home (the yacht), and I can have guest staying over.
If the guest are allowed to do work while on the yacht is the question, but what one do in his cabin might not be anybody's question or is it?
The reason I am so keen on getting a large motor boat is the low price they are offered at. A sailboat will only give you ¼ the space for the same money, but you got the fuel bill to consider.
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/809824/?searchid=6417395&page=1

 

[Sandyman]

So maybe I have found the way.
I can work from my home (the yacht), and I can have guest staying over.
If the guest are allowed to do work while on the yacht is the question, but what one do in his cabin might not be anybody's question or is it?
The reason I am so keen on getting a large motor boat is the low price they are offered at. A sailboat will only give you ¼ the space for the same money, but you got the fuel bill to consider.
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/809824/?searchid=6417395&page=1

Steel. Very nice but don't forget the increased maintenance & upkeep costs of a steel boat. I know. I live on one
There will be times when you have to use a marina so factor in marina costs for a boat that size.
Your talking around 10 Euro per M per night or more ! !

 

[sveinutne]

Yes, it looks nice, but you can get even nicer in GRP at the same price. So it looks like there are a lot to choose from in Steel, GRP and aluminum.
Next summer I plan to test something like skysails on my sailboat just to see if I can make it work with a regular paraglide and some remote-controlled servos.
http://www.skysails.info/english/
If I get it to work semi automatic, I might have a way to move the yacht for a reduced cost.

 

[1bobt]

urmm

 

[sveinutne]

Second thought

I have some experience in running a software company, and thought first I could do it again in small scale from the boat, but I know I would need a small team, and that will not work on a small boat. Also this was not my dream, so I will look at my original dream.
My dream is to sail between the island of Greece. At least in the summertime. So if I buy a yacht that has been coded and used as charter in Greece. What is then the problem to run it for 5 more years? If I understand it right one get charter license for five years, and the boat need to be chartered 200 or 300 days duriging that periode depending on the size of the boat.
Life rafts might need to be replaces, and some of the safety equipment, but what is the big expense or problem?

 

[chinita]

You asked the question. You were given the answer. You ignore the answer.

Go ahead.

Bye bye.

 

[sveinutne]

You asked the question. You were given the answer. You ignore the answer.

Go ahead.

Bye bye.

I did not ignor the answer, I just want to get all relevant factors. After some more web surcharge I see the buraucracy in Greece might be a show stopper. From what I read Turkey might be better. I am now checking out this. Greece was my first choice, but Turkey is a good number 2.
In 1993 I was told it was impossible to start a company in Russia, but 3 months later I did it.
So I just need to fine the country with least resistance and be high on my dream list.

 

[Tony Cross]

I did not ignor the answer, I just want to get all relevant factors. After some more web surcharge I see the buraucracy in Greece might be a show stopper. From what I read Turkey might be better. I am now checking out this. Greece was my first choice, but Turkey is a good number 2.
In 1993 I was told it was impossible to start a company in Russia, but 3 months later I did it.
So I just need to fine the country with least resistance and be high on my dream list.

Have you sailed (or motored) at all in Greece or Turkey? I would think you'd be wise to try chartering a boat for a few weeks next summer and cruise around here finding out what others are doing, how charter businesses here operate, what the likely market for your boat would be, and at least getting some idea of the main obstacles you're likely to encounter. I don't think you can get any of that information off the Internet.

 

[sveinutne]

Have you sailed (or motored) at all in Greece or Turkey? I would think you'd be wise to try chartering a boat for a few weeks next summer and cruise around here finding out what others are doing, how charter businesses here operate, what the likely market for your boat would be, and at least getting some idea of the main obstacles you're likely to encounter. I don't think you can get any of that information off the Internet.

Yes, I agree that might be a good idea.
I have done some bear boat sailing in Greece, and that is how I fall in love with that area. The charter operator was very friendly, and they gave me some advice. They had some that rented their boats for 12 weeks, and then brought their own contacts to sail with them as shipper. How legal that is, I do not know but many do. But I had not started thinking if my early retirement at that time. I think I got one or two more year of planing before I make my move, so that will give me time to check out the place in advanc. Now I am just removing places that is too hard to do business in. So thank you for your advice.

 

[Spi D]

FWIW you seem to justify a dream come true by borderlining rules, regulations and some realities of life.

To set a real baseline, as opposed to a dream-up scenario, make a total budget including investment, operation (!), cost to live and long term outlook.
Then factor in the issues of wandering in and out of EU areas while doing business (alone bringing your current boat and/or funds from Norway into the EU will invoke a set of conditions as will Turkey and Southern Med).

Although used to a high general cost level and non-EU legislation in Norway, do not presume that anything boaty in the south is a give-away. Not least because your income will reflect the cost level down there.

You mention software as line of business and that it would take staff onboard to make it work. To my experience software companies off-shore labour-intensive work to India (or elsewhere in that direction). I don't believe any of the skilled, competent people in the European software industry would be willing to live as a staff onboard your vessel to support your dream, but I might be wrong.

 

[sveinutne]

FWIW you seem to justify a dream come true by borderlining rules, regulations and some realities of life.

To set a real baseline, as opposed to a dream-up scenario, make a total budget including investment, operation (!), cost to live and long term outlook.

You mention software as line of business and that it would take staff onboard to make it work. To my experience software companies off-shore labour-intensive work to India (or elsewhere in that direction). I don't believe any of the skilled, competent people in the European software industry would be willing to live as a staff onboard your vessel to support your dream, but I might be wrong.

I came to the same conclusion, and abolished that idea.
So the easy part will be to wait some more years and just retire and sail around on the pension, or find a way to make some income while sailing somewhere warm.